Who will swap for the new 7.3 V8!

[millhouse]

I am not going lie I will be shocked if it makes over 500 HP.

As would I. I think it absolutely has the parts to do it….with the exception of the cam.

Don't forget you yourself a few pages ago stock to stock the coyote would still have the edge. Your words, not mine. You and Erik are the only ones who keep bringing a modified 7.3 into the discussion. The OP does not want to get more HP. He wants the engine as it is. As it will come in the F-250. Which you yourself have said numerous times, the coyote will be a better fit. .

I still think the coyote would have an edge, but would not be surprised if the extra torque this engine affords gives a significantly better 60’ yielding better ¼ times (with a likely slower mph).

The coyote ABSOULTELY is a better fit. It was designed to fit in the engine bay with the vehicles intended dynamics. I personally would never swap one in an s550. I do however see past blind coyote loyalty in that this absolutely has it’s place for some people in an s550. Stoplight to stoplight, this is a better engine in the s550 than the coyote…just like the current camaro is a better engine (stoplight to stoplight) than the coyote.

No one is saying the 7.3 doesn't have potential. What we are saying is the 7.3 AS IS is a terrible idea (mostly because of the financials) compared to the coyote.

It’s only a terrible idea if you’re pulling out a perfectly good coyote. I think what most who are arguing against me are failing to see is…it has a place for those that want monstrous off idle torque and aren’t currently rocking a coyote engine.

For your truck engine argument. Put yourself in Fatguy's shoes. You have a V-6. You are going to swap a V-8 into it. Your choices are the Mustang 5.0 or the F-150 5.0. You are doing nothing but swapping the engine (because that is what the OP wants) No new cams, heads, tunes none of that. Are you going to choose the Mustang 5.0 or the F-150 5.0?

Not the best analogy. The mustang 5.0 already produces more horsepower and torque than the f150. A mustang 5.0 in the F150 with proper gearing would be faster than the F150 engine. The only reason for the lower hp and torque is to shift the RPM down in the powerband for towing duty. No one want’s to tow at 6000RPM, as engine longevity and fuel economy are going to suffer greatly.

How about this…what if the 5.0 truck engine made 10 less horsepower but 75 more lb-ft of torque and a broader powerband? Can you say confidently that the mustangs 5.0 would be quicker in the ¼ mile? I can’t, as the extra torque could more than make up for any top end loss.

Yeah, because in a Mustang the 5.0 is the right tool for the job (for you and me) compared to the 7.3

Fixed

But that is not the topic at hand. the topic at hand is how the OP wants the truck engine AS IS. He doesn't care about performance, he doesn't want a high reving big motor. His goal is not the same as someone like Erik. He wants the engine out of a F-250 AS IS. You yourself said the 5.0 will have a performance edge. That is the problem here. You keep trying to bring the argument that the 7.3 has potential. Any engine has potential with deep enough pockets. This conversation however is the 7.3 as it comes of the assembly line before going into a motorhome or F-250 getting put in a Mustang.

Stoplight to stoplight, there is a damn good chance that 7.3L would dominate the coyote. That’s what the OP is looking for, and if it get’s the job done…why no?

As for deep enough pockets, the 7.3L is going to be a cam swap away from 500+RWHP and a shit ton of torque. It comes with durable parts from the factory. It’s already fuel injected. It’s not as if this engine is going to require thousands in upgrades. Were talking about a $350 cam here. Shift that torque curve higher in the rpm range and watch the HP skyrocket.

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[tokuzumi]

Hahaha, how cute, someone busted out the ol' trope of referring to another poster as "kid".

Let's not forget the ever important internet metric of HP/L

 

[millhouse]

Likewise. I am think in the range of 420-440 honestly.

Anything less than 440hp would be a failure. It’s not a co-incidence that the HP/L figures across multiple manufacturers are similar. Ford started with a HP and TQ number and came up with the 7.3L based off of stoichiometric efficiencies. My bet is they are right above 60hp/l. There is a chance I am completely wrong, and they are shooting for an EXTREMELY low powerband. I don’t think that’s the case though, as HP is always a selling point.


FYI, 61hp/L puts the rating right at 445hp.

Unless I am mistaken and this post from GMA is wrong, the 6.6 only makes 401HP and 464 FT/LBs. The Ram gas engine is 410HP.


http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/02/6-6l-v8-l8t-gm-engine-specs-released/


The 7.3 could be best in class with as little as 411HP and 470 FT/LBs




No just no. No one is going to associate amazing performance in a Mustang with an engine found in a motor home

It could be, but it won’t be. Making 1% more horsepower and torque out of an engine that is 10% larger would be an epic failure from Ford.

Funny enough guess what you get when you scale up the hp on that 6.6L 401hp chevy by 10%.

 

[bootlegger]

This goes beyond what he wants.

I am not concerned about going beyond what the OP wants. I am addressing his needs and suggesting a cheaper option that is available. If you want to go north of 700whp, we already have that capability in the Coyote. The OP said he wants the feel of a big block. We told him gearing would give him all that feel. He wasn't happy, and said he wanted the engine. My suggestion is the 427 crate engine, which has more than enough power for him as is, and all of the feel of a big block. That, or just buy an LS. Both easy options.

Using a 7.3L from Ford will mean waiting a few years. It will take quite a bit of time for the aftermarket to latch on. I really doubt your predictions of massive swap numbers. If you do some research on the subject, you will find a number of engine builders offering built and/or sleeved Coyotes with the capability of safely making north of 700whp and taking tons of boost. These are still the cheaper option versus swapping a whole different engine, mounting system, ecu, etc.
Another key detail to point out, is that we have no idea how quality will be with this new engine. You can claim an engine is overbuilt all day long, but if initial build quality sucks, that means very little.

 

[millhouse]

I am not concerned about going beyond what the OP wants. I am addressing his needs and suggesting a cheaper option that is available. If you want to go north of 700whp, we already have that capability in the Coyote. The OP said he wants the feel of a big block. We told him gearing would give him all that feel. He wasn't happy, and said he wanted the engine. My suggestion is the 427 crate engine, which has more than enough power for him as is, and all of the feel of a big block. That, or just buy an LS. Both easy options .

I understand what you’re saying, but he doesn’t what a carbed 427 built off of 50+ year old architecture. Sure, you could add on a fuel injected throttle body, but it will never have the drivability of this new 7.3L, nor will it be as efficient or clean. It also won’t have the durability, nor will it mate up cleanly to a 10 speed transmission.

So while sure, a 427 would give him gobbs of low end torque, it comes with it’s own problems that the 7.3L doesn’t have.

Using a 7.3L from Ford will mean waiting a few years. It will take quite a bit of time for the aftermarket to latch on. I really doubt your predictions of massive swap numbers.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. This 7.3L is going to be used in a lot of hot rodding applications. Ford nuts have been waiting a long time for a modern pushrod engine, let a lone a big block. As for the aftermarket, I give it less than a year before the first aftermarket cams start appearing for this engine. Again, maybe I’m wrong in regards to demand. Looking on other truck and hot rodding forums though, there is a lot of excitement.

If you do some research on the subject, you will find a number of engine builders offering built and/or sleeved Coyotes with the capability of safely making north of 700whp and taking tons of boost. These are still the cheaper option versus swapping a whole different engine, mounting system, ecu, etc.

Another key detail to point out, is that we have no idea how quality will be with this new engine. You can claim an engine is overbuilt all day long, but if initial build quality sucks, that means very little.

Cheaper to a point..yes, only if starting out with a coyote. Also, once you start reaching massive power numbers however, you’ll need more displacement and an aftermarket block. This is going to be the main selling point on the 7.3L. I don’t expect many to swap them into an S550 and leave them stock.

As for quality, why would you expect anything less than what the coyote has? Ford is already hyping up it’s reliability and how stout it is.

 

[Fatguy]

I am not concerned about going beyond what the OP wants. I am addressing his needs and suggesting a cheaper option that is available. If you want to go north of 700whp, we already have that capability in the Coyote. The OP said he wants the feel of a big block. We told him gearing would give him all that feel. He wasn't happy, and said he wanted the engine. My suggestion is the 427 crate engine, which has more than enough power for him as is, and all of the feel of a big block. That, or just buy an LS. Both easy options.

Using a 7.3L from Ford will mean waiting a few years. It will take quite a bit of time for the aftermarket to latch on. I really doubt your predictions of massive swap numbers. If you do some research on the subject, you will find a number of engine builders offering built and/or sleeved Coyotes with the capability of safely making north of 700whp and taking tons of boost. These are still the cheaper option versus swapping a whole different engine, mounting system, ecu, etc.
Another key detail to point out, is that we have no idea how quality will be with this new engine. You can claim an engine is overbuilt all day long, but if initial build quality sucks, that means very little.

The last movie I made took 16 years and 140 grand to make. TV shows typically take four years to make it to production. It’s all a crap shoot in the end. The V6 is a company car bought from a fleet manager. Upgrades are production costs, yadda, yadda. The swap is an actual possibility. Nobody has wasted their time here...

 

[Big Boss]

As would I. I think it absolutely has the parts to do it….with the exception of the cam.

It might

I still think the coyote would have an edge, but would not be surprised if the extra torque this engine affords gives a significantly better 60’ yielding better ¼ times (with a likely slower mph).

It might have better 60 times if it hooks, but I still think it would fall on its face about the 1/8 mile because this engine is designed to operate in the lower to mid RPM range. Even if the A10 kept it in the power band it might shift to many times and get it into an OD gear faster to keep it in the low to middle range of the power band thus slowing it down.

The coyote ABSOULTELY is a better fit. It was designed to fit in the engine bay with the vehicles intended dynamics. I personally would never swap one in an s550. I do however see past blind coyote loyalty in that this absolutely has it’s place for some people in an s550. Stoplight to stoplight, this is a better engine in the s550 than the coyote…just like the current camaro is a better engine (stoplight to stoplight) than the coyote.



It’s only a terrible idea if you’re pulling out a perfectly good coyote. I think what most who are arguing against me are failing to see is…it has a place for those that want monstrous off idle torque and aren’t currently rocking a coyote engine.

Which is what Erik seems to be implying will happen.

Not the best analogy. The mustang 5.0 already produces more horsepower and torque than the f150. A mustang 5.0 in the F150 with proper gearing would be faster than the F150 engine. The only reason for the lower hp and torque is to shift the RPM down in the powerband for towing duty. No one want’s to tow at 6000RPM, as engine longevity and fuel economy are going to suffer greatly.

It's a perfect analogy. You said why can't a truck motor be a car motor. I gave you an example and you agreed with it. Your exact words, the F-150 engine and trans are geared to be operated in the power band for towing. Exactly as the the 7.3 will be.

How about this…what if the 5.0 truck engine made 10 less horsepower but 75 more lb-ft of torque and a broader powerband? Can you say confidently that the mustangs 5.0 would be quicker in the ¼ mile? I can’t, as the extra torque could more than make up for any top end loss.

In that scenario you are right. I can't say for sure which would be faster. But we do know that the 7.3 is going to weigh more than the Coyote which IMO will offset any torque advantage.



Fixed



Stoplight to stoplight, there is a damn good chance that 7.3L would dominate the coyote. That’s what the OP is looking for, and if it get’s the job done…why no?

As for deep enough pockets, the 7.3L is going to be a cam swap away from 500+RWHP and a shit ton of torque. It comes with durable parts from the factory. It’s already fuel injected. It’s not as if this engine is going to require thousands in upgrades. Were talking about a $350 cam here. Shift that torque curve higher in the rpm range and watch the HP skyrocket.

Responses in red because I didn't know how to break the quote up as cleanly as you did it haha.

Anything less than 440hp would be a failure. It’s not a co-incidence that the HP/L figures across multiple manufacturers are similar. Ford started with a HP and TQ number and came up with the 7.3L based off of stoichiometric efficiencies. My bet is they are right above 60hp/l. There is a chance I am completely wrong, and they are shooting for an EXTREMELY low powerband. I don’t think that’s the case though, as HP is always a selling point.


FYI, 61hp/L puts the rating right at 445hp.





It could be, but it won’t be. Making 1% more horsepower and torque out of an engine that is 10% larger would be an epic failure from Ford.

Funny enough guess what you get when you scale up the hp on that 6.6L 401hp chevy by 10%.

The 6.6 from GM actually makes less HP than the GM 6.2. I don't think truck buyers care about HP like fatguy they care about the torque and how well it will tow haul. I am pretty sure they are shooting for a low power band. I will try to find the article, but they are making this gas engine as a viable option instead of the diesel. That to me says they want this thing to have a low powerband like a diesel. The applications they want this for is fleet commercial users that don't want a diesel.

I am not concerned about going beyond what the OP wants. I am addressing his needs and suggesting a cheaper option that is available. If you want to go north of 700whp, we already have that capability in the Coyote. The OP said he wants the feel of a big block. We told him gearing would give him all that feel. He wasn't happy, and said he wanted the engine. My suggestion is the 427 crate engine, which has more than enough power for him as is, and all of the feel of a big block. That, or just buy an LS. Both easy options.

Using a 7.3L from Ford will mean waiting a few years. It will take quite a bit of time for the aftermarket to latch on. I really doubt your predictions of massive swap numbers. If you do some research on the subject, you will find a number of engine builders offering built and/or sleeved Coyotes with the capability of safely making north of 700whp and taking tons of boost. These are still the cheaper option versus swapping a whole different engine, mounting system, ecu, etc.
Another key detail to point out, is that we have no idea how quality will be with this new engine. You can claim an engine is overbuilt all day long, but if initial build quality sucks, that means very little.

This ^

@Fatguy liked to bring up old school hot rodding where engine swaps when engine swaps were common and people were gear heads. Hot rodders also like to do things as cheap as possible (Which is why Erik loves him some LS motors).

There are multiple cheaper alternatives to achieve the goal fatguy wants.

 

[Fatguy]

Responses in red because I didn't know how to break the quote up as cleanly as you did it haha.




The 6.6 from GM actually makes less HP than the GM 6.2. I don't think truck buyers care about HP like fatguy they care about the torque and how well it will tow haul. I am pretty sure they are shooting for a low power band. I will try to find the article, but they are making this gas engine as a viable option instead of the diesel. That to me says they want this thing to have a low powerband like a diesel. The applications they want this for is fleet commercial users that don't want a diesel.



This ^

@Fatguy liked to bring up old school hot rodding where engine swaps when engine swaps were common and people were gear heads. Hot rodders also like to do things as cheap as possible (Which is why Erik loves him some LS motors).

There are multiple cheaper alternatives to achieve the goal fatguy wants.

Nobody cares about the cheaper alternative. They want risk, the unknown. They want entertainment! As I’ll be recording the whole thing.

 

[Big Boss]

Nobody cares about the cheaper alternative. They want risk, the unknown. They want entertainment! As I’ll be recording the whole thing.

Actually just about everyone cares about the cheaper alternative.

Going faster for the least amount of dough possible.

 

[millhouse]

Responses in red because I didn't know how to break the quote up as cleanly as you did it haha.

Damnit man, makes it impossible for me to re-quote! lol

My only response is, it doesn't matter if the RPM is up high or low. It only matters what the area under the curve looks like. The mustangs curve is larger than the F150’s, hence the reason it’s going to perform better.

If the 7.3L engine has more area under the curve than the coyote, it’s going to be faster (assuming the weight penalty isn’t large). It doesn’t matter where the RPM is at. This is the point I’m making. It doesn’t matter if it was designed for a truck. Area under the curve and if you’re able to use all of it….that’s all that matters.

Responses The 6.6 from GM actually makes less HP than the GM 6.2. I don't think truck buyers care about HP like fatguy they care about the torque and how well it will tow haul. I am pretty sure they are shooting for a low power band. I will try to find the article, but they are making this gas engine as a viable option instead of the diesel. That to me says they want this thing to have a low powerband like a diesel. The applications they want this for is fleet commercial users that don't want a diesel.

The 6.6 does make less hp…and thus less hp/l. It’s sacrificing hp for torque. The question is, how much is the 7.3L going to sacrifice. Those 440hp numbers I was floating around are using similar hp/l numbers as the chevy 6.6L. It’s a reasonable assumption based off of known data from competitors who also design their engines based off of hp and torque targets and stoichiometric efficiencies.

As for gas vs diesel, Ford knows fleets are getting away from diesel engines and the extra costs associated with them. You’re absolutely right, this is billed as a diesel alternative. It will never come close however to a diesel powerband. Gasoline just burns too damn fast and has a substantially shorter stroke.

@Fatguy liked to bring up old school hot rodding where engine swaps when engine swaps were common and people were gear heads. Hot rodders also like to do things as cheap as possible (Which is why Erik loves him some LS motors).

There are multiple cheaper alternatives to achieve the goal fatguy wants.

Until we find out the price on these from junkards in a few years, we really won’t know how cheap it’s going to be. If they are put in a ton of vehciles, I’d except it to be damn cheap given he has the fabrication skills.

 

[bootlegger]

I understand what you’re saying, but he doesn’t what a carbed 427 built off of 50+ year old architecture. Sure, you could add on a fuel injected throttle body, but it will never have the drivability of this new 7.3L, nor will it be as efficient or clean. It also won’t have the durability, nor will it mate up cleanly to a 10 speed transmission.

So while sure, a 427 would give him gobbs of low end torque, it comes with it’s own problems that the 7.3L doesn’t have.

The port systems available for these engines would make driveability just fine. Maybe it wouldn't be as refined as a brand new design 7.3, but the OP doesn't want refined modern engine feel. We have no idea what problems will come with the 7.3L. There is no way of knowing how cleanly a 7.3 will mate to a Mustang A10. Either way, you're looking at a lot of fab work.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. This 7.3L is going to be used in a lot of hot rodding applications. Ford nuts have been waiting a long time for a modern pushrod engine, let a lone a big block. As for the aftermarket, I give it less than a year before the first aftermarket cams start appearing for this engine. Again, maybe I’m wrong in regards to demand. Looking on other truck and hot rodding forums though, there is a lot of excitement.

We are talking about Mustangs. I doubt they will be popular in the S550 community. Sure, maybe some older hotrodders will want them to play with. That will all depend on cost of the engine. The aftermarket support will need more than a handful of hotrodders.

Cheaper to a point..yes, only if starting out with a coyote. Also, once you start reaching massive power numbers however, you’ll need more displacement and an aftermarket block. This is going to be the main selling point on the 7.3L. I don’t expect many to swap them into an S550 and leave them stock.

As for quality, why would you expect anything less than what the coyote has? Ford is already hyping up it’s reliability and how stout it is.

It is still cheaper to take an S550, swap in an aftermarket Coyote, and turn up the boost. Making big power on either engine requires forced induction, so that cost is the same. MMR offers some nice built Coyotes for under $10k, and none of them take a lot of fabrication work.
The initial build quality of every first year newly designed engine is questionable. Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc all have similar chances of launch issues.

 

[bootlegger]

Nobody cares about the cheaper alternative. They want risk, the unknown. They want entertainment! As I’ll be recording the whole thing.

Literally every engine guy I know cares about getting the most performance for the least amount of money. Are you just trying to make money on youtube? If so, you aren't going to get much advice on here. IMO, this 7.3 swap wouldn't be so interesting. Put a Cummins B-series in that thing, and I will watch. Hell, I would find an F150 Raptor V6 ecoboost swap more interesting. Just my tastes.

 

[Fatguy]

Ultimately I think the 7.3 will be embraced by the aftermarket economy. There are only so many of these types of engines around - so...


Now, have you guys ever looked at the Mustang demographics. Or the ages of the people on this board. I’d say mostly middle-aged. Once the products are out there there will be interest and unlike the millennials, these guys have money to burn.


This swap is just ahead of the curve and that works for me!

 

[Big Boss]

Damnit man, makes it impossible for me to re-quote! lol

My only response is, it doesn't matter if the RPM is up high or low. It only matters what the area under the curve looks like. The mustangs curve is larger than the F150’s, hence the reason it’s going to perform better.
.

I will give it a shot here then so if this post makes no sense oh well!

If the 7.3L engine has more area under the curve than the coyote, it’s going to be faster (assuming the weight penalty isn’t large). It doesn’t matter where the RPM is at. This is the point I’m making. It doesn’t matter if it was designed for a truck. Area under the curve and if you’re able to use all of it….that’s all that matters.

That is where I will disagree, especially with the A10. If the power band is in the low mid range and the transmission is designed to keep it there, in a WOT application the trans would be shifting even more than it does in the 5.0 A10 combo to keep it in that sweet spot.

We both agree the A10 does a great job of keeping an enigne in the sweet spot. That is why the A10 5.0 performs as well as it does. If the sweet spot of the engine is in in the low to mid range of the power band, that trans mission is going to fly through the lower gears and you are going to run out of gears that are designed to accelerate and be in the OD gears which would slow down the car

The 6.6 does make less hp…and thus less hp/l. It’s sacrificing hp for torque. The question is, how much is the 7.3L going to sacrifice. Those 440hp numbers I was floating around are using similar hp/l numbers as the chevy 6.6L. It’s a reasonable assumption based off of known data from competitors who also design their engines based off of hp and torque targets and stoichiometric efficiencies.

As for gas vs diesel, Ford knows fleets are getting away from diesel engines and the extra costs associated with them. You’re absolutely right, this is billed as a diesel alternative. It will never come close however to a diesel powerband. Gasoline just burns too damn fast and has a substantially shorter stroke.

Which is exactly what I and I think many others believe the 7.3 will do. For it to be a viable diesel alternative it's going to need to sacrifice HP for better low end torque numbers.

Until we find out the price on these from junkards in a few years, we really won’t know how cheap it’s going to be. If they are put in a ton of vehciles, I’d except it to be damn cheap given he has the fabrication skills.

The reason me and others bring up cost is:

Fatguy has said he does not have the skill to do this. He will be paying someone to do it.
Fatguy has also stated he does not want a junk yard motor, he wants to buy it brand new. That means either hoping and praying the Ford comes out with a crate engine version with the A10 paired to it, or ordering it up from the parts counter which is going to cost big bucks.

Then there is all the custom stuff that would be needed that been discussed to death

 

[Fatguy]

Literally every engine guy I know cares about getting the most performance for the least amount of money. Are you just trying to make money on youtube? If so, you aren't going to get much advice on here. IMO, this 7.3 swap wouldn't be so interesting. Put a Cummins B-series in that thing, and I will watch. Hell, I would find an F150 Raptor V6 ecoboost swap more interesting. Just my tastes.

No youtube for me.


Engine guys don’t count. The general public does. The money does not matter as the viewers won’t do this. It’s just the pursuit of a dream and the obstacles involved. And if a few aftermarket suppliers want to get involved? Well there is that too.

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