Hood Corrosion Nightmare

[Inthehighdesert]

It sucks your dealing with this. That being said. It is not realistic to expect an exact match on a panel. There’s some bad information in this thread. There is no such thing as oem paint. When the factories do there runs on cars the material comes from different suppliers In many cases. Could be PPG, BASF, Sherwin, etc. That’s why when you go to a paint store there are so many variants. Even the best painters will have difficulty getting that type of repair correct. That’s why they should blend the fenders and the bumper cover. That’s the only way to make it correct. Gun pressure, pattern, even the reduction ratio will affect the end result. I was an ICAR Instructor(automotive collision and paint certification) and had a shop for over twenty years. I hope it works out for you but unfortunately I think your chasing an end result with a process that is unobtainable.

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[UnhandledException]

It sucks your dealing with this. That being said. It is not realistic to expect an exact match on a panel. There’s some bad information in this thread. There is no such thing as oem paint. When the factories do there runs on cars the material comes from different suppliers In many cases. Could be PPG, BASF, Sherwin, etc. That’s why when you go to a paint store there are so many variants. Even the best painters will have difficulty getting that type of repair correct. That’s why they should blend the fenders and the bumper cover. That’s the only way to make it correct. Gun pressure, pattern, even the reduction ratio will affect the end result. I was an ICAR Instructor(automotive collision and paint certification) and had a shop for over twenty years. I hope it works out for you but unfortunately I think your chasing an end result with a process that is unobtainable.

When I approached Ford, I very carefully laid out my expectations and had the service manager triple check (literally on 3 different occasions : 1) First time I dropped by to ask about the process 2) Then when making the appointment and 3) The day I dropped off the GT350) my expectations vs reality with the collusion center owner and they were:

1) The end result would be identical to a hood being painted in the assembly line as far as the quantity of paint (i.e. paint depth gauge would read to an acceptable margin of difference vs rest of the car), type of paint (brand), and the appearance (so no tinting)

2) There would be no blending (I am already eating the cost of redoing the PPF on the hood, $750. The cost of redoing the fenders and bumper for PPF would be another $1500, which Ford doesnt cover. Plus I again dont want overspray on any other panels).

While I dont know personally about Auto paint, I do have a family member who was in the auto paint industry (as in as part of manufacturing process), specifically in BASF/Glasurit and I have learned a great deal from him during this journey. They definitely can match the paint to a very close match, perhaps not identical, but the way my car looked with the first paint hood was merely a red car with an orange hood. It was that bad.

I have also explained to them (and in fact, proven to them on the car) that having PPF does not change the color. I have multiple areas of my car where PPF is partially on and none of the body shop personnel could argue with me about PPF not having a difference in appearance. You cant tell its there.

I think part of the problem (and why they are hesitant to use the camera) is they may have a problem with their camera system/underlying paint brand they are using.

They have also been very hush hush with me about the details of what they have done. In the first hood they ruined, against my explicit instructions, they have repeatedly painted over the hood multiple times. When I saw the orange hood and told them this is unacceptable and they agreed so, one of the things we discussed was stripping the incorrect paint off and trying again (but at the time I didnt know anything about cataphoresis primer that you would also go away that comes with the panel). They assured me repeatedly that they wouldnt paint over. Little did they know that I would arrive the next time with a depth gauge and point out there is almost 3 times of the depth measured on the hood vs rest of the car. That was 2-3 weeks ago. Fast forward to today, they let it slip (on their own), that they had done 12 sprays on the first hood to try to match the color.

I have had paint work done in other cars I have owned (3 occassions, all BMWs) and in every one of these times, specific panel was painted, no blending took place, and car appeared as new. I know for a fact that the collusion centers BMW dealerships used were factory certified, in that they only did BMWs, they had equipment that came from Germany (including the ovens, including the paint, and including spray guns that are half auto). So I know for a fact that you can paint panels to OEM spec.

A similar thing happens when Euro cars get off the ship in the port and they arrive with damage. They have whats called VPC (Vehicle Processing Centers) that have the same equipment and can paint body panels without any blending etc. Do you think people would buy a $200,000 Porsche Turbo (or a $60,000 cayman, they all go through the same VPC) with overspray to blend the paint due to a scratch in transit? Or do you think Porsche would send a car like that back because they are unable to paint a specific panel back to spec?

When I bought my GT3RS CPO, I had pictures of every single panel (literally) of paint depth gauge readings as part of the CPO booklet.

Yes Porsche (BMW) vs Porsche you may say, but I'll say it can be done and I'm sure there are Ford dealers out there with the right body shops subcontracted that know what they are doing. I doubt this is "Ford certified".

No matter how careful you are and think about various angles, sometimes it just doesnt work out. Also somethings are learned with experience (the hard way). The lesson to be learned here is no matter how many times you ask the service to check, I should have done my own due diligence about the particular body shop being Ford certified or not (they do every kind of car there from Mazdas to Toyotas to Fords).

 

[Tank]

They either dont know how to use it or it doesnt work properly because they have shown me 7 samples total (5 solvent based, 2 water based), of which only 1 was from the camera and it was not even close. I have asked them to take 3 readings from 3 different places (roof, fender, trunk) and pick the best matching one. They have never done this and keep telling me camera isnt very precise. Furthermore, they dont cook the samples in the oven which isnt right as the temperature/duration does impact how colors appear at the end (especially true on a red).

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?wtcode=M7236

 

[CANTWN4LSN]

BTW what is the dreaded hood rust? Where on the hood? Pictures?

 

[Inthehighdesert]

I’m very familiar with BASF, Glasurit and Diamont is what I’ve used for almost 30 years. I don’t have a system any longer but my local supplier lets me tint my own stuff when I need something. I get your frustration, but a service manager nor anybody other then the tech actually doing the paint work should have represented what can or can’t be done. Ultimately there the ones doing the actual work. The worst part of your situation is no shop wants to do it, not willingly any way. It’s simply a job that has no upside in reality for a shop or tech, especially from a monetary standpoint. The advice I would give you, not that you’ve asked, is to contact your local Glasurit/Diamont supplier and ask for there outside shop rep. That person will know what tech or techs at what shop in your area is very good at what you need done. They will deal with them on a regular basis and have first hand knowledge of what they produce on a regular basis as well. Best of luck to you, hope you get the end result your wanting.

When I approached Ford, I very carefully laid out my expectations and had the service manager triple check (literally on 3 different occasions : 1) First time I dropped by to ask about the process 2) Then when making the appointment and 3) The day I dropped off the GT350) my expectations vs reality with the collusion center owner and they were:

1) The end result would be identical to a hood being painted in the assembly line as far as the quantity of paint (i.e. paint depth gauge would read to an acceptable margin of difference vs rest of the car), type of paint (brand), and the appearance (so no tinting)

2) There would be no blending (I am already eating the cost of redoing the PPF on the hood, $750. The cost of redoing the fenders and bumper for PPF would be another $1500, which Ford doesnt cover. Plus I again dont want overspray on any other panels).

While I dont know personally about Auto paint, I do have a family member who was in the auto paint industry (as in as part of manufacturing process), specifically in BASF/Glasurit and I have learned a great deal from him during this journey. They definitely can match the paint to a very close match, perhaps not identical, but the way my car looked with the first paint hood was merely a red car with an orange hood. It was that bad.

I have also explained to them (and in fact, proven to them on the car) that having PPF does not change the color. I have multiple areas of my car where PPF is partially on and none of the body shop personnel could argue with me about PPF not having a difference in appearance. You cant tell its there.

I think part of the problem (and why they are hesitant to use the camera) is they may have a problem with their camera system/underlying paint brand they are using.

They have also been very hush hush with me about the details of what they have done. In the first hood they ruined, against my explicit instructions, they have repeatedly painted over the hood multiple times. When I saw the orange hood and told them this is unacceptable and they agreed so, one of the things we discussed was stripping the incorrect paint off and trying again (but at the time I didnt know anything about cataphoresis primer that you would also go away that comes with the panel). They assured me repeatedly that they wouldnt paint over. Little did they know that I would arrive the next time with a depth gauge and point out there is almost 3 times of the depth measured on the hood vs rest of the car. That was 2-3 weeks ago. Fast forward to today, they let it slip (on their own), that they had done 12 sprays on the first hood to try to match the color.

I have had paint work done in other cars I have owned (3 occassions, all BMWs) and in every one of these times, specific panel was painted, no blending took place, and car appeared as new. I know for a fact that the collusion centers BMW dealerships used were factory certified, in that they only did BMWs, they had equipment that came from Germany (including the ovens, including the paint, and including spray guns that are half auto). So I know for a fact that you can paint panels to OEM spec.

A similar thing happens when Euro cars get off the ship in the port and they arrive with damage. They have whats called VPC (Vehicle Processing Centers) that have the same equipment and can paint body panels without any blending etc. Do you think people would buy a $200,000 Porsche Turbo (or a $60,000 cayman, they all go through the same VPC) with overspray to blend the paint due to a scratch in transit? Or do you think Porsche would send a car like that back because they are unable to paint a specific panel back to spec?

When I bought my GT3RS CPO, I had pictures of every single panel (literally) of paint depth gauge readings as part of the CPO booklet.

Yes Porsche (BMW) vs Porsche you may say, but I'll say it can be done and I'm sure there are Ford dealers out there with the right body shops subcontracted that know what they are doing. I doubt this is "Ford certified".

No matter how careful you are and think about various angles, sometimes it just doesnt work out. Also somethings are learned with experience (the hard way). The lesson to be learned here is no matter how many times you ask the service to check, I should have done my own due diligence about the particular body shop being Ford certified or not (they do every kind of car there from Mazdas to Toyotas to Fords).

 

[Tank]

BTW what is the dreaded hood rust? Where on the hood? Pictures?

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/is-your-350-rotting-before-your-very-eyes-like-mine.109819/

Hey @UnhandledException-
This thread has a link to the TSB. Includes the procedures to prep the new panel. Seems to me it’s supposed to be in house.

Looks like it’s a running TSB going back to 2000 so it might have been superseded by a newer version. I would think your dealer would know about it.

 

[stanglife]

Dealers absolutely know about this. When I pointed it out on the hood of my 16R, the service advisor had all of the information. They were to obtain anew hood and paint it there at the dealership. This aluminum corrosion issue has been going on for a long time on all of their cars with aluminum panels. I ended up selling the car before the actual repair - it just worked out in the timing and the new owner was willing to tackle that on his end...and probably a good idea, as he was the one who should check the quality, in the end. @ecoboost321 can chime in if he likes.

It sucks your dealing with this. That being said. It is not realistic to expect an exact match on a panel. There’s some bad information in this thread. There is no such thing as oem paint. When the factories do there runs on cars the material comes from different suppliers In many cases. Could be PPG, BASF, Sherwin, etc. That’s why when you go to a paint store there are so many variants. Even the best painters will have difficulty getting that type of repair correct. That’s why they should blend the fenders and the bumper cover. That’s the only way to make it correct. Gun pressure, pattern, even the reduction ratio will affect the end result. I was an ICAR Instructor(automotive collision and paint certification) and had a shop for over twenty years. I hope it works out for you but unfortunately I think your chasing an end result with a process that is unobtainable.

I know all of this is generally true except I'll add a little context. In my case, I had an almost new 2019 Audi RS3 that was rear ended. Damage into the trunk floor - trunk lid and every part in the back of the car was damaged....except it didn't damage the quarter panels. I'm also a "don't paint what doesn't need painted" guy...I know that's the SOP in the business but it just didn't make sense to paint MORE than was damaged, when you want that OE paint look and depth. I asked them if they could do it without blending. They had the tech look at it and called me the next day to say they thought they could and planned on trying. In the end, it was perfect. Now, this was glacier white pearl metallic - I'm not sure if that is easier or harder than Red, to match...but shops will do it and with some success. This was also at the only Audi certified paint shop in the area and they did a lot of work on exotics in the area.

1) The end result would be identical to a hood being painted in the assembly line as far as the quantity of paint (i.e. paint depth gauge would read to an acceptable margin of difference vs rest of the car), type of paint (brand), and the appearance (so no tinting)

2) There would be no blending (I am already eating the cost of redoing the PPF on the hood, $750. The cost of redoing the fenders and bumper for PPF would be another $1500, which Ford doesnt cover. Plus I again dont want overspray on any other panels).

From what I've learned - a panel painted at a shop will NEVER be the same thickness as the factory paint. If you can get the quality appearance that you are after and the paint will last, that's the best result, IMO. I'd be OK with whatever quality brand of paint they like to use.

 

[Zombo]

Interesting timing. Years after finding the corrosion on both front fenders (Tank's post above), I went to the dealer last week (a few weeks before my warranty is up) to initiate a claim. I learned that this type of corrosion is NOT covered under warranty, as that covers corrosion perforation, not bubbling. However, the TSB covers it, so, for the person here who's dealer refused to cover it, bring them the TSB - they will cover your hood corrosion.

My claim was approved and the dealer has 2 fenders and associated parts on order.

My car has never been to a dealer (didn't even get the oil cooler tube recall done yet), so I had no experience with the local dealers. Thus, I surveyed them and decided on the dealer I ultimately went to. They have in-house paint/body repair with a 40 years in the business gentlemen doing the work. We'll see how it goes, and I'll post the results. Their mechanic will be doing the oil tube recall while everything is apart.

 

[Inthehighdesert]

Your experience with the repair isn’t unusual, there’s lots of really good paint techs out there. One thing that I noticed over the years was some techs were better with certain colors Then others. Reds can be extremely difficult to match, especially if the variants are way off. It really comes down to experience. Blue’s, grays and white’s aren’t to bad. If you throw a tri coat in to the equation like some of the pearl whites or the rapid red on my 350 it makes it even more difficult. A good paint tech was the most critical part of the shop when I was doing it. They were hard to come by and they were compensated accordingly.

Dealers absolutely know about this. When I pointed it out on the hood of my 16R, the service advisor had all of the information. They were to obtain anew hood and paint it there at the dealership. This aluminum corrosion issue has been going on for a long time on all of their cars with aluminum panels. I ended up selling the car before the actual repair - it just worked out in the timing and the new owner was willing to tackle that on his end...and probably a good idea, as he was the one who should check the quality, in the end. @ecoboost321 can chime in if he likes.



I know all of this is generally true except I'll add a little context. In my case, I had an almost new 2019 Audi RS3 that was rear ended. Damage into the trunk floor - trunk lid and every part in the back of the car was damaged....except it didn't damage the quarter panels. I'm also a "don't paint what doesn't need painted" guy...I know that's the SOP in the business but it just didn't make sense to paint MORE than was damaged, when you want that OE paint look and depth. I asked them if they could do it without blending. They had the tech look at it and called me the next day to say they thought they could and planned on trying. In the end, it was perfect. Now, this was glacier white pearl metallic - I'm not sure if that is easier or harder than Red, to match...but shops will do it and with some success. This was also at the only Audi certified paint shop in the area and they did a lot of work on exotics in the area.




From what I've learned - a panel painted at a shop will NEVER be the same thickness as the factory paint. If you can get the quality appearance that you are after and the paint will last, that's the best result, IMO. I'd be OK with whatever quality brand of paint they like to use.

 

[johnny1]

Your experience with the repair isn’t unusual, there’s lots of really good paint techs out there. One thing that I noticed over the years was some techs were better with certain colors Then others. Reds can be extremely difficult to match, especially if the variants are way off. It really comes down to experience. Blue’s, grays and white’s aren’t to bad. If you throw a tri coat in to the equation like some of the pearl whites or the rapid red on my 350 it makes it even more difficult. A good paint tech was the most critical part of the shop when I was doing it. They were hard to come by and they were compensated accordingly.

This is so true. When bought my 2016 new found bad spot on rear fascia and dealership had a local paint shop look at it. They wanted to take off and repaint the entire rear fascia not just blend paint the spot. I was real leery of painting it all. I finally conceded and when they got done (car was blue) it was perfect match. Whether you looked at it in direct sun light or shade.

 

[Cobra Jet]

1) Factory OEM replacement body panels will never come from the vehicle manufacturer painted - ever. Your Ford Dealership should know this and if they don't, then they shouldn't be in business.

2) If the Ford Dealership doesn't have an on-site auto body repair (not many do), they should be contracting the work to a facility that is approved by Ford, that adheres to and uses Ford repair techniques, repair processes and QC. If they're unable to match paint to an existing vehicle (any), then maybe the work needs to be moved to another facility that can do the job correctly.

3) Any replacement body panel needs prep work - I don't care if it's metal, fiberglass, or XYZ composite. Again, your Service Center should have known this AND on top of that, it's not possible to have a same day drop off/pick up with that type of work. Why anyone would have thought as such, is beyond me.

4) Body panels can be painted over and over and turn out correct. It's a matter of being able to strip down the panel whether it's many old/new layers of paint OR if a mistake happened... Again, don't know why the Shop is telling you differently.

5) Blending is necessary - whether it's hoods, roof or any side panel. You can't just spray a single panel and be like "it matched"... Blending or fading into neighboring panels is the proper method so that it makes it that much more difficult to see the final repair. Yes, blending can turn out bad if the painter isn't experienced.

If you haven't already, call the Ford 800# and get a Regional CSR to assign a Case #. They should also send a Ford Rep to the shop where you car is to see the issues in person. Doing this documents your concerns and the fact that the warranty work isn't being performed in a manner to make you whole. It also puts a spotlight on the Service Center and the shop performing the auto body repair work. If people don't report such issues as this, the problems just remain persistent.

This was the most recent TSB:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...um-panel-corrosion.117031/page-8#post-3057958


Yes the problem is wide spread and has been for years. Only starting in 2016 did Ford revise the Paint Warranty to state that there is no prerequisite for aluminum body panels to have metal perforation and that the affected panel is to be replaced with a new panel. Prior to 2016, metal perforation was required for a panel replacement.

 

[UnhandledException]

1) Factory OEM replacement body panels will never come from the vehicle manufacturer painted - ever. Your Ford Dealership should know this and if they don't, then they shouldn't be in business.

2) If the Ford Dealership doesn't have an on-site auto body repair (not many do), they should be contracting the work to a facility that is approved by Ford, that adheres to and uses Ford repair techniques, repair processes and QC. If they're unable to match paint to an existing vehicle (any), then maybe the work needs to be moved to another facility that can do the job correctly.

3) Any replacement body panel needs prep work - I don't care if it's metal, fiberglass, or XYZ composite. Again, your Service Center should have known this AND on top of that, it's not possible to have a same day drop off/pick up with that type of work. Why anyone would have thought as such, is beyond me.

4) Body panels can be painted over and over and turn out correct. It's a matter of being able to strip down the panel whether it's many old/new layers of paint OR if a mistake happened... Again, don't know why the Shop is telling you differently.

5) Blending is necessary - whether it's hoods, roof or any side panel. You can't just spray a single panel and be like "it matched"... Blending or fading into neighboring panels is the proper method so that it makes it that much more difficult to see the final repair. Yes, blending can turn out bad if the painter isn't experienced.

If you haven't already, call the Ford 800# and get a Regional CSR to assign a Case #. They should also send a Ford Rep to the shop where you car is to see the issues in person. Doing this documents your concerns and the fact that the warranty work isn't being performed in a manner to make you whole. It also puts a spotlight on the Service Center and the shop performing the auto body repair work. If people don't report such issues as this, the problems just remain persistent.

This was the most recent TSB:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...um-panel-corrosion.117031/page-8#post-3057958


Yes the problem is wide spread and has been for years. Only starting in 2016 did Ford revise the Paint Warranty to state that there is no prerequisite for aluminum body panels to have metal perforation and that the affected panel is to be replaced with a new panel. Prior to 2016, metal perforation was required for a panel replacement.

I have a case# as of 4 weeks or so ago. I have sent repeated emails and voicemails to Ford asking for a Ford rep to be sent in to recommend next steps. I have done the same via the service department. Service has been very reluctant to involve Ford. I keep asking them to bring Ford into this and have them provide concrete next steps and they keep putting pressure on me to "pick a color and move on". I keep telling them that I am not an expert and should not be asked to provide opinion on which color to choose. Furthermore, I dont want to be involved on a 1-1 basis with the body shop, but they keep doing this in the more subjective/not-very-professional way. I have told them what looks good to my eye using tiny samples might turn out bad when hood is painted and I dont have the training to assess various aspects of the paint job to determine which color they need to use.

They have also now started trying water based paint vs solvent based paints that Ford uses because they are saying water based paints more truly represent red. I spoke to a few of my contacts (including in Glasurit), and they are saying thats BS. Water based paint is less error prone as it doesnt change properties the way solvent based paint do after going through the oven (but then I dont know how relevant this is). Now they are asking me to choose between solvent vs water paint and I dont even know how to choose!

The way I see this is my car has not been in an accident. This is not a collusion repair. This is a warranty claim and I, as a customer, should receive my vehicle, repaired with a new hood. I shouldnt have to go through all of these hoops and get involved every step of the way.

The whole thing with blending is actually much (MUCH MUCH!) more about my lack of confidence on the particular collusion center than anything else. They screwed up on the first hood. Good thing hood costs $800 and a new one came. Do the same on fenders/bumper, much bigger headache and I doubt you can simply rewind/unwind. If I showed you the picture of the first hood, you would laugh. It was so obvious that I saw my car 200 feet away as I was walking and started laughing. So much so that as we walked up to the car, the owner didnt even refuse it looks bad.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly do you strip the inside of the hood? I bet 90% chance that they wouldnt strip inside of the hood due to the stamped metal and difficulty of doing it and simply leave it be. See I cant stand half assed work. Be it Ford, Mercedes, Porsche, or Bugatti. People need to respect other people's property and do things right. I dont accept that just because its a $60,000 car and not $250,000 car, I should be OK with something like this.

I did not see any "Ford Certified" anywhere in this body shop (and they are huge). I have dealt with these factory certified places before (other brands) and they always had these certifications on their walls. When I pressed the body shop owner about bringing Ford into this, I was simply told that they dont deal with Ford that they have never met a Ford rep before and that they have no way of contacting Ford. They did say they had to meet certain qualifications to do Ford warranty work but when I asked about Ford certified, I didnt get an answer. Body shop sends me to Ford service and says take up your complaints with the Ford dealership, dealer gets frustrated and tells me to work it out with the body shop. Its a nightmare.

The other issue is, the ford service is putting way too much pressure on me where they say "take your car back with the old hood, then complain to Ford after the fact. But we have to close the repair order". And I am refusing to do that as I know closing the RO simply means I will lose any ability to resolve this. Not to mention there will be a record of warranty work being performed on the car for a hood corrosion but I will still have the corroded hood. I believe Ford is no longer paying them for the loaner car and that puts them under more pressure to wrap this up.

 

[MagCoyote5.0]

Just out of curiosity, how exactly do you strip the inside of the hood?

Should be done with a chemical stripper, brush on then rinsed of to neutralize the stripper. Pretty easy and the most efficient way to remove coatings on aluminum

 

[Cobra Jet]

The hood (or any metal body panels from any vehicle for that matter) can be stripped with any type of correct blasting media that will and can strip it down to bare metal on both sides, regardless of structure or stamping of the metal.

If you're not getting anywhere with your current Ford Regional CSR, call the 800# back or even the current phone # you have for the CSR. At the prompt wait for an Operator OR dial -0-. When one comes on, demand to speak to a Ford Supervisor. Tell that Supervisor you've been more than patient with this effort and enough is enough already. Ask what he/she is going to do to make you whole and at what point will your vehicle be properly repaired under the warranty provisions.

It's one thing to be patient, it's another to be walked all over - no matter how "nice" the Body Shop or Service Center is being.

 

[stanglife]

They weren't using a waterborne system already?

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