Interesting drag race

[EFI]

The standard, base model of the C7 Corvette was what? A zero-to-sixty of around 3.9 seconds? Then came the base model C8 which lopped a whole second off with a 2.9.

The GT in those same years has not made that type of progress.

Line up a 6R80 S197 GT next to a 10R80 S550 GT at the dragstrip and you'll see the progress.

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[jloshotz]

My ‘16 is my first Mustang ever. And I absolutely LOVE the thing. No real mods yet whatsoever. I used to dream of my 70 Chevelle being an LS6 car with 450 hp. Now 450 is like a low-end baseline. And I love it

 

[GrabberBargeCaptain]

Only thing that surprised me that much was the new car being lighter than the old

 

[joe603]

Need to see completely stock 23 GT vs. a completely stock 24 GT race.

 

[Less Weight]

Line up a 6R80 S197 GT next to a 10R80 S550 GT at the dragstrip and you'll see the progress.

What? You mean a half a second to 60? I said that:

"The GT in those same years has not made that type of progress." I didn't say it didn't make any progress.

A half a second in a decade's worth of time is hardly anything to write home about. Especially when the base model Corvette made up a full second in only ONE generation. What you describe is 3 generations (and a mid-cycle refresh) worth of minimal gains.

And those gains look even worse when you compare the mid cycle refresh (2018 -2023) to the S650 GT. Miniscule gains, if any. I think I'm being generous when I say miniscule because it's more like non-existent. Identical 0-60 times.

Listen, it's not like I'm some Chevy fan boy or something. Honestly, I think their cars are pretty damn hideous. Haven't liked a Chevy product since the C6 Vette but numbers don't lie. They have just been more diligent in ensuring that their products have more consistent and cumulative gains.

I bought my 2016 GT because I thought it was the best looking car under $100,000. I still think that. And that was just the icing on the cake. For $33,000 BRAND NEW out the door I got a thumping V8 and grins from ear to ear. But time has moved on and the performance value just isn't what it used to be. Paying almost double today for almost identical performance is not appealing in the least.

 

[Trap]

I would say that the GT has made gains with the A10 and increased power.
But the power does not offset the increased gearing in the MT-84.
The 24 GT couldn't get out of 3rd gear while the 16 was into 4th is huge difference

 

[DarthMalice]

I had a 16 AT GT so I can definitely compare it to my AT Mach 1...it was a pretty stark upgrade in terms of handling and performance. The 18 refresh was so comprehensive - I had to sell my 16 for work related reasons, but I knew I would get back into an 18+ later. I did prefer the 15-17 front end to the 18 but the Mach 1 changes resolved that as well. The biggest issue with the 15-17 GT for automatic owners were stupid Ford decisions. I could not get the performance package in the US yet all European GT cars had it standard regardless of transmission type. So Ford thought American AT owners didn't want the upgraded handling? The six speed auto was not as fast but it was still a fun transmission in sport/track setting. Fast forward to 2019/2020 timeframe when I started looking again. Loved the Bullitt and PP2 but no auto option on either car (again Ford with stupid, self-imposed limitations). Finally in the Mach 1, Ford put it all together which is why I think the Mach 1 was the best of S550 as it addressed shortfalls across the performance models: reliability/choice of transmission/upgraded electronics vs. GT350, choice of transmission/added power/upgraded manual and track coolers vs. PP2/Bullitt; and affordability/choice of transmission vs. GT500. Nothing about the current S650 offerings would get me out of my Mach 1. A low mileage 2022 Code Orange GT500 could probably get me out of it, but that is only because I telework now more than I did when I bought my Mach 1 so the affordability impact has changed.

 

[Bob Lob Law]

What? You mean a half a second to 60? I said that:

"The GT in those same years has not made that type of progress." I didn't say it didn't make any progress.

A half a second in a decade's worth of time is hardly anything to write home about. Especially when the base model Corvette made up a full second in only ONE generation. What you describe is 3 generations (and a mid-cycle refresh) worth of minimal gains.

And those gains look even worse when you compare the mid cycle refresh (2018 -2023) to the S650 GT. Miniscule gains, if any. I think I'm being generous when I say miniscule because it's more like non-existent. Identical 0-60 times.

Listen, it's not like I'm some Chevy fan boy or something. Honestly, I think their cars are pretty damn hideous. Haven't liked a Chevy product since the C6 Vette but numbers don't lie. They have just been more diligent in ensuring that their products have more consistent and cumulative gains.

I bought my 2016 GT because I thought it was the best looking car under $100,000. I still think that. And that was just the icing on the cake. For $33,000 BRAND NEW out the door I got a thumping V8 and grins from ear to ear. But time has moved on and the performance value just isn't what it used to be. Paying almost double today for almost identical performance is not appealing in the least.

The vette did make a HUGE jump from 7-8 gen, but, it took them decades and multiple generations before being able to! The jump was nowhere even close to as big in previous gens! The C8 going mid engine helped the traction so much is where most of that improvement came from. If they would have stayed the same chassis layout the improvement would look more like the mustangs. The mustang will not gain that much without a blower or turbo because of the front engine rear drive set up.

 

[Less Weight]

The vette did make a HUGE jump from 7-8 gen, but, it took them decades and multiple generations before being able to! The jump was nowhere even close to as big in previous gens! The C8 going mid engine helped the traction so much is where most of that improvement came from. If they would have stayed the same chassis layout the improvement would look more like the mustangs. The mustang will not gain that much without a blower or turbo because of the front engine rear drive set up.

Congrats on proving my point for me. Chevy decided to devote the time, resources and finances to engineer a better product.

Ford for S550 to S650:

"Hey, let's plaster a massive iPad to the dash, give it some hideous, busy-body styling, and call it the S650 to fool buyers into thinking that this is an all new model. Yeah. Yeah! This sounds like a great idea! We've hit the jackpot now, boys!!!"

Again, not a Chevy fan boy. Have actually never owned a Chevy. But the difference in approach is stark.

But I guess Ford knew that their competition was dead so they decided, "Why bother?" And in a way they're right.

 

[DarthMalice]

We are losing sight of the Camaro evolution. It had some improvement in 0-60 etc. but advancement in handling can impact perception of value. The 6th Gen Camaro handled like it was on rails from its outset. Had they not just #$%&ed up visibility, and other "daily" considerations, we might be having very different conversations right now. That might be the biggest failure of S650 to not make marked improvement in handling over S550. More of the budget should have gone to that versus lame interior/exterior changes. The higher spec Mustangs in S550 came close, but Imagine the review of S650 if Ford had simply "stopped the hop" or fixed the cradle shifting from the factory!? Didn't happen because BMR is still fixing that aftermarket...that just makes me shake my head. But we got a little spinning Mustang graphic on the Unreal screen.

 

[EFI]

Corvette made up a full second in only ONE generation. What you describe is 3 generations

Last I checked, S197 > S550 is also one generation (the same as the C7 > C8 you're describing). Not sure where you're getting 3 from but ok.

 

[Less Weight]

Last I checked, S197 > S550 is also one generation (the same as the C7 > C8 you're describing). Not sure where you're getting 3 from but ok.

S197, S550 (S550 refresh) S650.

What I'm saying is that Ford made no progress in acceleration between the S197 to the 15-17 S550 then made a small step from 15-17 to 18-23 then no step from there to the s650

 

[Less Weight]

I had a 16 AT GT so I can definitely compare it to my AT Mach 1...it was a pretty stark upgrade in terms of handling and performance. The 18 refresh was so comprehensive - I had to sell my 16 for work related reasons, but I knew I would get back into an 18+ later. I did prefer the 15-17 front end to the 18 but the Mach 1 changes resolved that as well. The biggest issue with the 15-17 GT for automatic owners were stupid Ford decisions. I could not get the performance package in the US yet all European GT cars had it standard regardless of transmission type. So Ford thought American AT owners didn't want the upgraded handling? The six speed auto was not as fast but it was still a fun transmission in sport/track setting. Fast forward to 2019/2020 timeframe when I started looking again. Loved the Bullitt and PP2 but no auto option on either car (again Ford with stupid, self-imposed limitations). Finally in the Mach 1, Ford put it all together which is why I think the Mach 1 was the best of S550 as it addressed shortfalls across the performance models: reliability/choice of transmission/upgraded electronics vs. GT350, choice of transmission/added power/upgraded manual and track coolers vs. PP2/Bullitt; and affordability/choice of transmission vs. GT500. Nothing about the current S650 offerings would get me out of my Mach 1. A low mileage 2022 Code Orange GT500 could probably get me out of it, but that is only because I telework now more than I did when I bought my Mach 1 so the affordability impact has changed.

I agree with this. Found it very annoying that I couldn't get the Performance Pack on my automatic equipped 2016 GT. Had to buy all the components separately and install them myself. Ford wised up from 2018 onward.

 

[EFI]

What I'm saying is that Ford made no progress in acceleration

I guess that's true if 0-60 acceleration is the ONLY thing in your book that constitutes progress.

 

[Less Weight]

I guess that's true if 0-60 acceleration is the ONLY thing in your book that constitutes progress.

I mean, don't get me wrong. Ford switching from the solid rear axle to the independent rear was a very important and vital step. I just wish that they would have given it more thought. It's just so sloppy back there. Rubber everywhere. It's just not a nice feeling when you're going hard in the corners or accelerating hard from a stop.

Looks are subjective. While I think the 2015-2017 cars look far nicer than the S197 or anything to come after, that's just one man's opinion

I just think a bit more effort could go a long way in making a good product a really good product.

I've been a Ford fan since I was a teen. Still have my 2000 Cobra R poster hanging up. Just want them injecting a bit of that world class engineering (Ford GT and the new GTD) into their lower models. Especially when they're charging almost double for a product that hasn't changed drastically.

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