The "Camaro Guys" don't like S550

[SStormtrooPer]

This is just a no-nothing hate rant. Yes, the Camaro has it's bad points and plenty of them, but you can't seem to fairly critique it without bashing it.

Interesting, I'm not trying to pick fights, and I didn't realize I was "critiquing" the Camaro -- in fact I know I wasn't.

If you reread my post, you will see it was a sarcastic post pointing out the Camaro's "flaws"(some fact, some opinion, but far from "gospel") for anyone that seems to think it matters what the Camaro guys think about S550. If the Camaro ran on unicorn tears and exhausted leprechaun farts, then they have a case -- but with a car that is far from perfect, it makes zero difference what they say. So people should not wish the Mustang looked different because of what some Camaro driving magazine racer says, they should decide for themselves. And yes, it was a rant, I disclosed that right away.

But if you have to be serious, the Z28 is a joke and you shouldn't mention it -- it SHOULD be extremely capable for the price and all the BS that is thrown into it -- let's compare apples to apples here. I sure as hell hope it could leave a Boss 302 in the dust. Good thing the magazines will tell us, because until it gets its own class created, it won't be running in many sanctioned events.

I would hardly call 2014 "The Year of the Z28". Not many are going to care about a $70k car that has a lower production number for the entire year than the number of V6/GT Mustangs or RS/SS Camaros that are sold in 1 week. Will it be fast? I hope so. Will it be special? Maybe. Will it be used for what it was built? Doubt it.

Do we need to talk about the 1LE as well??


Im a pretty big GM fan mainly because I like the smallblock V8 but they have some amazing driving cars that preform great despite their supposed heft. To deny that is simply crazy.

I never denied that GM makes cars that perform great -- I was just pointing out that the Mustang drives as good or better with a solid axle. Considering how crappy a solid rear axle is for anything other than drag racing, the Camaro's IRS is pretty disappointing, but that just my opinion.

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[crazyfastfreddy]

i dont care much to check but im curious what ARE they saying about it over there?

is it just blind hate for anything Mustang? i've seen enough negative reaction on Mustang sites (not as much this one but still a few). sometimes im convinced these guys would talk trash if you showed them a pic of their own cars and called it something else.

 

[SStormtrooPer]

i dont care much to check but im curious what ARE they saying about it over there?

is it just blind hate for anything Mustang? i've seen enough negative reaction on Mustang sites (not as much this one but still a few). sometimes im convinced these guys would talk trash if you showed them a pic of their own cars and called it something else.

I don't think they are really saying much other than it looks like a Fusion -- I haven't checked it out either. Camaro5 is a joke either way, so they can't ever be taken seriously -- which is why I never go there.

I just have heard a bunch of Mustang guys say they wish it was different so the Camaro guys would stop poking fun.

 

[crazyfastfreddy]

lol those mustang guys are as much to blame then. who the hell cares what the camaro guys think and get real, lets talk when they put some lights and paint on it.

 

[Dub347sbf]

lol those mustang guys are as much to blame then. who the hell cares what the camaro guys think and get real, lets talk when they put some lights and paint on it.

Word. And see the side profile and the rear end. Who cares? Our next gen is awesome regardless what they put out and how "Badass" the new camaro looks. And I'm basing if it only loses a hundred pounds with the same motor and a IRS! Still killer.

 

[bballr4567]

I never denied that GM makes cars that perform great -- I was just pointing out that the Mustang drives as good or better with a solid axle. Considering how crappy a solid rear axle is for anything other than drag racing, the Camaro's IRS is pretty disappointing, but that just my opinion.

I think you might want to recheck your numbers. The Camaro just about outhandles every version of the Mustang save for the V6 (and Im not sure they have been tested together now that the Camaro has had an update to it).

The 1LE is an awesome beast with its disappointing IRS and even more so than the Mustang Track Pack (:frusty.


And for every day living, the IRS is lightyears ahead of the Mustang and its live axle. Again, to think that it isnt is quite foolish.


Not to mention, there are guys going deep into the 8s with the IRS design, of course, they are using all beefed up hardware but you would do the same to a live axle design as well.

All Im saying is that despite your feeling about the IRS vs live axle, the numbers are in the IRS favor. Plus, the new Mustang IS IRS. If you dont think Ford is going to have a boondoggle time trying to tune it you might be wrong. GM has had a long time tuning IRS suspensions in high HP cars. Lets hope that Ford gets it right right out of the gate.

I would hardly call 2014 "The Year of the Z28". Not many are going to care about a $70k car that has a lower production number for the entire year than the number of V6/GT Mustangs or RS/SS Camaros that are sold in 1 week. Will it be fast? I hope so. Will it be special? Maybe. Will it be used for what it was built? Doubt it.

At least the Z/28 isnt going to be some one special off run of 50 cars like the 302S. To compare it to the 302 is quite silly. It will likely be cheaper than the 302S and you might actually see them every now and again as they will be making about 1500 a year.

 

[thePill]

I think you might want to recheck your numbers. The Camaro just about outhandles every version of the Mustang save for the V6 (and Im not sure they have been tested together now that the Camaro has had an update to it).

The 1LE is an awesome beast with its disappointing IRS and even more so than the Mustang Track Pack (:frusty.


And for every day living, the IRS is lightyears ahead of the Mustang and its live axle. Again, to think that it isnt is quite foolish.


Not to mention, there are guys going deep into the 8s with the IRS design, of course, they are using all beefed up hardware but you would do the same to a live axle design as well.

All Im saying is that despite your feeling about the IRS vs live axle, the numbers are in the IRS favor. Plus, the new Mustang IS IRS. If you dont think Ford is going to have a boondoggle time trying to tune it you might be wrong. GM has had a long time tuning IRS suspensions in high HP cars. Lets hope that Ford gets it right right out of the gate.



At least the Z/28 isnt going to be some one special off run of 50 cars like the 302S. To compare it to the 302 is quite silly. It will likely be cheaper than the 302S and you might actually see them every now and again as they will be making about 1500 a year.

If CBIRS is used, quite a lot of drag racers will warm up to the design vs. the basic Chevy Camaro garbage they forced on buyers. Ford isn't new to Control Blade (or IRS), it's just new for the heavily drag raced Mustang.

Now, the z28... No, the z28 isn't like a Boss 302S... The Boss 302S is legal to compete in every class eligible and is the former SCCA GTS Champion and current Co-Champion in SCCA T1 along side a Z06...

You won't see the new z28 in competition because quite frankly, there wasn't any room between the Corvette and Boss in the classes they competed.

You could end up paying $80-90,000 for a overweight pig in ruby slippers... No AC, No Radio/Sterio, ILLEGAL in road racing and so far just backed by Chevy performance claims... Ya' know, like they did with the ZL1 and 1LE. Real world results appear to be more in the GT, Boss and GT500's favor. They will tell you it can do 12 flat and 2:49 at VIR yet, nobody will get it below a 12.5 and NOBODY will ever get close to their VIR time... Yet, they will have already sold you a useless piece of sh!t, and I highly doubt Al O. even thinks 1500 people care enough to spend $80,000 on a marked up Camaro.

Your correct though, the z28 won't be some "one special run off"... It is hardly special enough to win a championship like the old Z/28 did. Not special enough for Chevy to sanction the z28 in anything vs. any of the four Boss 302 trim levels... It is just silly to compare a competitive bred sports coupe against a full size sports sedan.

Camaro people have a strange sense of beauty... To them, a Chevy is square, big, bulging (sometimes overly so) and cartoonish (The Camaro itself is a Lightning McQueen Transformer). On our side, we pretty much have locked in that anything GT500 looking is looking good.

The first thing on their minds after hearing rumors of power increases, weight loss and a new styling direction is to instantly (blindly) attack the size of the vehicle (weight defense) and attack the looks (styling defense). The new car looks like a GT500, it is smaller, lighter, more powerful... That's what they really see... They have no problem lovin' the face and rear of one of the ugliest pony cars built, the 2014 Camaro.

It is hands down the worst thing that could have happened to the Camaro right now... You can't go into battle with Ford's new world class sports coupe with what looks like a z28 Pine Wood Derby car.

Why so square???

 

[Agarc]

good God man lol

 

[bballr4567]

See, who cares if it races in SCCA?? You always bring that up. What if the owners just want to take it on the track for a fun run like MANY, upon, MANY 1LE owners do. You have it in your head that owners have to take it to a track, get in a sanctioned race to have fun. Well, you are pretty wrong. Why did people buy the 302? Same reason. How many of those people do you think take the car out and race in SCCA? I'd venture to say maybe 5%.

Lots and lots of guessing and conjecture as usual.

What I find REALLY funny though is that you are almost bashing the Z/28 for not having AC and a stereo but did the 302S offer that?


If the SCCA wants to change the competition, it will allow it to compete. If the competition doesnt want it to compete there will be protests but, guess what, life will go on and the other cars in the competitions will get better because of a better car.

 

[thePill]

See, who cares if it races in SCCA?? You always bring that up. What if the owners just want to take it on the track for a fun run like MANY, upon, MANY 1LE owners do. You have it in your head that owners have to take it to a track, get in a sanctioned race to have fun. Well, you are pretty wrong. Why did people buy the 302? Same reason. How many of those people do you think take the car out and race in SCCA? I'd venture to say maybe 5%.

Lots and lots of guessing and conjecture as usual.

What I find REALLY funny though is that you are almost bashing the Z/28 for not having AC and a stereo but did the 302S offer that?


If the SCCA wants to change the competition, it will allow it to compete. If the competition doesnt want it to compete there will be protests but, guess what, life will go on and the other cars in the competitions will get better because of a better car.

Listen, if Chevy doesn't want to play in organized racing against the Mustang, then they don't have to. I think it's retarded and completely unfair to market a vehicle as such when they knew it wasn't legal. If it wasn't a big deal, then why is Al O. trying to get a NEW CLASS started so the buyers have somewhere to go...

The 302S is a competitive race car and shouldn't have luxuries... The z28 is a half-ass street car and a half-asses track car...

Do you know why there are more 1LE's in the SCCA? Because Chevy sanctioned them there and they are legal to run.

Team Camaro said that the '14 z28 was in the competitive, racing spirit of the original. They keep bringing up racing when they know they can't...

Their fault, not mine...

There are a shit load of Boss owners (GT, Boss, BossLS, BossS) in SCCA and NASA competing and winning championships both regional and national. I know you don't know this because Camaro5 just recently found out there were rulebooks... and that the manufacturer has to follow those rulebooks... and so does the driver/owner...

Life goes on, just not on the track as the z28 is marketed heavily on... Or is it lies goes on?

 

[bballr4567]

And more smoke out the fire I guess.



I guess its GM fault for building something that doesnt adhere to the rules. In fact, I think they have said they threw away the rules to build the best car that they want to build. Not build the best car to what someone else wants.


Look, I know you know a lot about racing. However, you can not fault GM for wanting to build a straight out badass car. Call it an overweight pig (but then what is a GT500???) and get all pissed off because it cant run in a specific class but to deny that its a badass car just shows you dont have any interest in cars other than Ford or so it seems. You would be in complete joy if Ford built a Mustang 302XX (sounds cool lol) but to bag on GM for doing the same is quite silly.

See, I have complete respect for all types of badass cars. I love the Terminators (cant fit in one to save my life though) and I respect what they can do. Just because I dont really like a Mustang doesnt mean that I have to put it down every chance I get. Hell, just the other day I stood and talked to an owner of a Mustang II King Cobra just because its something you never see and it looked down right awesome. Why do I get the feeling that if you see a good looking Camaro you just laugh at its helpless owner?


Also, would you mind to dig up some info on the CBIRS and stick it in the drivetrain section? I figured there would be a lot more noise about it than there is.

 

[thePill]

Chevrolet engineered the car, it is their fault... I didn't make the z28 non-compliant in every major road racing organization. Ford made the Boss 302 according to the published rulebooks there fore, had limitations but needed to compete with the M3. Ford did very well, actually, the did really, really well...

Now, Chevy brings out pretty much a Boss 302S without a cage, gets it to pass 50 state safety inspections and calls it a race car (Al himself).

Here is reality and a shame if you ask me...

Chevy is having trouble getting a Nurburgring time, the z28 isn't even finished yet AND NOW, Ford is testing it's base 5.0 GT against a Boss 302S (Z06 performance level) and that $70,000 z28 is about to be put in the same magazine as a $40,000 Track Pack, 5.0 GT-R. That is going to look really, really bad...

They could also have a fully functional GT350 ready for Ford Racing/SVT by January 2014. What then????

3300-3400lbs, 525hp, high revving V8 for around $50k?

Probably offered at possibly two levels as a GT350 and a GT350R... Now you see how silly a z28 is? Right now it's just overpriced and useless, in 5 months it will be overpriced, useless and obsolete.

Chevy had an opportunity to build a straight up bad ass Camaro in the ZL1 but chose not to. It was trumped in a day and then painfully over the last year by the GT500... They straight up tell you this z28 is better than the ZL1... That's a shame... In a few months, most will tell you the '15 GT is straight up better than the z28 :(

...and don't tell me it looks better, the '14 Camaro's, including the very square z28, look awful. It looks like a Pug in the front and a Prelude in the back. Where is the "Barf" key?

 

[bballr4567]

Chevy is having trouble getting a Nurburgring time, the z28 isn't even finished yet AND NOW, Ford is testing it's base 5.0 GT against a Boss 302S (Z06 performance level) and that $70,000 z28 is about to be put in the same magazine as a $40,000 Track Pack, 5.0 GT-R. That is going to look really, really bad...

Good job ignoring the important aspects. I suspect you are the kid at car shows that laughs at other car owners because they dont do what you think is right. I dont like the way the S197 looks in its early years but I dont go around telling their owners it looks like shit. I can respect that some like the way it looks. No issue there. Shame on your part.


Regardless, do I really have to bring up the performance of the 1LE to counter this argument? The same 1LE that is $37k that has beat the $62K (you have to add options to get the cooling and actual track suspension) GT500? Do you not see the pot vs kettle here? Plus, where is the pricing for the Z/28?? Oh right, you dont know it and are just assuming (well, jumping to a conclusion again) that its going to be $70k.



And also, just because the 302S was ON the track as the new Mustang it doesnt mean that it will match that performance. Quite a huge jump to a conclusion there dont you think?

 

[Pabo]

You just knew this thread was gonna be trouble

Gonna be interesting to see the reactions seeing a next gen mustang next to an older camaro, at least for a year or so. It's been a LOONG time since that's happened.

 

[thePill]

Good job ignoring the important aspects. I suspect you are the kid at car shows that laughs at other car owners because they dont do what you think is right. I dont like the way the S197 looks in its early years but I dont go around telling their owners it looks like shit. I can respect that some like the way it looks. No issue there. Shame on your part.


Regardless, do I really have to bring up the performance of the 1LE to counter this argument? The same 1LE that is $37k that has beat the $62K (you have to add options to get the cooling and actual track suspension) GT500? Do you not see the pot vs kettle here? Plus, where is the pricing for the Z/28?? Oh right, you dont know it and are just assuming (well, jumping to a conclusion again) that its going to be $70k.



And also, just because the 302S was ON the track as the new Mustang it doesnt mean that it will match that performance. Quite a huge jump to a conclusion there dont you think?

You are ignoring the the most important aspect, Chevy is about to sell you a z28 for $70k when Ford will have a faster, lighter, cheaper and legal option at the same. It looks bad, really, really bad. A lot of people didn't like the 2005-'09 Mustang's, even more didn't like the '10-'12 and some hated the GT500ish '13-'14's... If the Camaro guys don't like the new Mustang, they can buy the z28 if they really want a car that can't really do anything...

Now, the 1LE is a laughable, media flogged attempt at SCCA. Yes, it beat a GT and Boss in a magazine, however, the 1LE can't manage a 5.0 GT in T2 (or seven GT's mind you). I respect how much emphasis is placed on media testing, but I put way more stock in competition and racing, which is what the z28 is marked as. The 1LE is pretty much as high as the 5th Gen Camaro can go in road racing and Chevy knows that a 7liter z28 wouldn't fair any better so, exotic equipment was needed to get the pig to handle. The 1LE isn't beating ANYTHING... it's maiden season was a huge flop.

I assume the z28 will start around $67k, it was even mentioned that anything under $65k would be a blessing (Jim). So, that's pretty close enough... Now, since the Boss 302/302 LS would routinely be marked up from $2000-$20,000 at 4000 a year, what do you think the $20,000 mark up on the Stingray will translate to with a 1500 (still not buying that number) per year build?

As for the '15 GT testing against the Boss 302S, ummmmmm.... yeah... They are not out on a racetrack to prove anything else other than performance data (braking). It was said the new GT was being bench marked from the Boss, they just didn't say it would have been a 302S.

The 302S can do Laguna Seca in about 1:34-1:36... If they can get a '15 GT to lap Laguna Seca in 1:36, that will be big trouble for the twice as pricey z28... I imagine, Laguna is a track they are focused on.

That's why Camaro guys don't like the S550, or the thought of a better Mustang altogether... It's an instant threat to an aging product.

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