TDStuart Tuning Adventure

[markmurfie]

Ok you want to run the car hard on a track use 5w50 if you prefer. I'm not saying that's wrong.

Where does any of this information say this improves phaser control?
People say it helps reduce tick noise, but I think that's just in their heads.

Viscosity is not the compressibility of the fluid. For all practical purposes oil of low or high viscosity is not compressible. Now if that oil is being airated and you get a bunch of bubbles in it, that's entirely different. Then typically high viscosity holds bubbles from escaping more than low.

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[K4fxd]

Where does any of this information say this improves phaser control?

I have seen it several times from Ford and FRPP. I also think Mike @engineermike tested this with logs.

I use 5-40 so what do I know?

 

[engineermike]

I have a specific issue with my exhaust cam control due to the additional torque required to drive the XDi GDI pump. Higher viscosity absolutely improves the issue and I have dozens of logs to prove it. On a 40 weight, it will control fine when cold but not when hot. On some 50's, it works all the time when oil is fresh but after shear thinning, it loses control. On RL 5w50, it works all the time through the entire oil cycle. RL is almost a 60 weight and the ester base shear thins less than others.

That said, the Gen3 exhaust phasers work completely different than the intakes and all of the Gen2 phasers. Viscosity definitely affects Gen3 exhaust phasers due to the path the oil travels to get from the solenoid valve to the phaser actuator and back, but I haven't seen the issue show up when using the stock GDI pump.

 

[shogun32]

On RL 5w50, it works all the time through the entire oil cycle

wow $200 oil change...

 

[engineermike]

wow $200 oil change...

Yes, it stings a little. But I get the whole 10k miles out of it so it’s only once a year.

 

[bankyf]

I have a specific issue with my exhaust cam control due to the additional torque required to drive the XDi GDI pump. Higher viscosity absolutely improves the issue and I have dozens of logs to prove it. On a 40 weight, it will control fine when cold but not when hot. On some 50's, it works all the time when oil is fresh but after shear thinning, it loses control. On RL 5w50, it works all the time through the entire oil cycle. RL is almost a 60 weight and the ester base shear thins less than others.

That said, the Gen3 exhaust phasers work completely different than the intakes and all of the Gen2 phasers. Viscosity definitely affects Gen3 exhaust phasers due to the path the oil travels to get from the solenoid valve to the phaser actuator and back, but I haven't seen the issue show up when using the stock GDI pump.

I guess its safe to assume this is why I've seen some of the higher powered cars (with presumably upgraded valve springs) locking out the exhaust cams only, but still running intake phasers?

 

[engineermike]

I guess its safe to assume this is why I've seen some of the higher powered cars (with presumably upgraded valve springs) locking out the exhaust cams only, but still running intake phasers?

Ths would apply just to gen3, but possibly. Couple other things… The exhaust cams’ effect on engine performance is not nearly as significant as the intake so the downside to locking exhaust is much less than intake. Also, there are no upgrades for the exhaust phasers but there are for intake.

 

[shogun32]

but there are for intake

Elaborate?

 

[engineermike]

Elaborate?

The gen2 and 3 share the same part number intake phaser actuator. Frpp sells the gt350 phaser as an upgrade for gen2, so it would work on gen3 as well. However, the gen3 exhaust phaser is unique to gen3 and I have seen no options to upgrade it. Ironically, ford switched the exhaust phaser design to handle the higher torque required to drive the gen3 gdi pump. As a side note, they are much slower to respond than the intakes.

 

[tdstuart]

@markmurfie

I saw that you were researching this on the hptuner forums.
Instead of adjusting every vct angle for all the tables what if I just adjusted the base cam timing angle?

Here is what I am talking about:

I am a little confused on how it works but couldn't I just adjust these to match with my aftermarket cams?

 

[Pistol_91]

@markmurfie

I saw that you were researching this on the hptuner forums.
Instead of adjusting every vct angle for all the tables what if I just adjusted the base cam timing angle?

Here is what I am talking about:

I am a little confused on how it works but couldn't I just adjust these to match with my aftermarket cams?

I believe that should be done when upgrading cams

 

[tdstuart]

For reference

2015-17 Mustang GT Stage 3 N/A NSR Comp Cam Specs (243-443 CYR Series) (Adv Dur 271)

Stock 15-17 Mustang GT (gen2 Coyote) Cam Specs:

Reference for all cyr comp cams 2015:

 

[tdstuart]

I believe that should be done when upgrading cams

Thats what I think too. Im just confused on how this is relating to the vct advance and retard.

It seems like mark was saying on hptuners that 360 is tdc. So the 340 for ivo would be -20 base than add whatever the intake vct is.

But if I can just change these values it would seem to make a lot more sense than changing all the vct tables manually.

 

[markmurfie]

@markmurfie

I saw that you were researching this on the hptuner forums.
Instead of adjusting every vct angle for all the tables what if I just adjusted the base cam timing angle?

Here is what I am talking about:

I am a little confused on how it works but couldn't I just adjust these to match with my aftermarket cams?

This is related to the VCT phaser and their range of motion. After market cams you could change EVC, IVO, and IVC, but it doesn't change the phaser range of motion so all your MP angles don't need to be changed.
I don't think the opening and closing events remaining stock or changing them will do much.

 

[engineermike]

It appears to me that Comp added nearly all of the extra duration to the EVO and IVC side of the cam lobes, adding basically nothing in the overlap region (EVC and IVO). This makes sense because they don't want to get into a piston-meet-valve situation and we already know that the stock phasers mechanically prevent this from happening.

I take the IVO (340) and EVC (369) to be deg ATDCf, so IVO is 20 deg BTDC and EVC is 9 deg ATDC. This intuitively makes sense. The commanded cam angles are then added to or subtracted from these. So, IVO could be 40 deg BTDC to 10 deg ATDC, and EVC could be 41 deg BTDC to 9 deg ATDC.

I don't see where any of this really helps, though, because all the calibration data isn't that accurate anyway. Scooting the cam angles around a bit might help a little but not the right way to fix it and it's a crapshoot that might improve some things and hurt others. I do think your SD model needs work more than anything else.

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