Lean at WOT

[Cory S]

Dunno I saw it though, I don't think for a second that all formulations are the same. I do think something was wrong in both cases. It just so happened to be the same shit.

Do you think it's full tank vs 1/2 full? When my car sits I always fill the tank.

Btw do you know someone who will tune straight methanol on a coyote? I want that guy's name.

You want straight Methanol? Build a 14:1 engine with a methanol carb. It won’t be very street friendly and that stuff is truly highly corrosive.

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[illtal]

I wouldn't mind a good stable e54 blend. Seen some beemers make good power on that.

 

[illtal]

You want straight Methanol? Build a 14:1 engine with a methanol carb. It won’t be very street friendly and that stuff is truly highly corrosive.

It is corrosive, which is why it's not ran full time. The stoich on that it's something like 6.45 or something of the sort. I can imagine that sitting in aluminum components absolutely killing things.

 

[bhvnce]

That’s the problem with educating people of fuels and the meaning of them. No fuels are “bad” currently at the pump. Why would you consider an Ethanol/gasoline blend “bad” at under 75% ethanol? Do you even know why? Just because a certain station or pump has less % of Ethanol content doesn’t mean it’s “bad” fuel. Technically, I would consider a E70% fuel “better” than E85.

1…. Because it’s less demanding on my fuel system.
2…. Because it’s less prone to any water absorption (nothing to worry about anyway in todays sealed fuel systems)
3…. Because I can still reach my spark timing cap on 70%.

This is fair. I agree that there's no such thing as "bad" E because the ethanol mixture can be different for a bunch of different cars to be considered "good". If my car is tuned for E50 and I go to the pump giving me an 50% ethanol blend I'm gonna call that "good" E. On the contrary, if my car is tuned for E85 and I go to the pump and get E50 out of it that's gonna be pretty "bad". Terminology just varies I guess.

The guys at PBD constantly ask me when I send them logs if I have good E in it or bad. It's based on the blend because if I send them a picture of my tester with E70 in it they are gonna say that's bad and to find a different pump to get them logs with a better tank of gas because my car is tuned for E85 not E70.

I think the idea of "good" or "bad" E is predicated off what the car needs. Some people where I'm from run E30 because their fuel system can't handle any more *cough cough camaros* so they'll sit there and measure out a gallon and a half of E85 and call it no good if it's anything lower because then their math doesn't add up. Flex Fuel seems like a pain in the ass if you're running anything lower than E50 honestly. I could be wrong I've never done it but in order to make that sensor happy there's so much work.

 

[K4fxd]

Btw do you know someone who will tune straight methanol on a coyote? I want that guy's name.

Any competent tuner will be able to do this.

 

[bhvnce]

Any competent tuner will be able to do this.

Hey K4 did you still want to see new logs?

 

[Angrey]

This is fair. I agree that there's no such thing as "bad" E because the ethanol mixture can be different for a bunch of different cars to be considered "good". If my car is tuned for E50 and I go to the pump giving me an 50% ethanol blend I'm gonna call that "good" E. On the contrary, if my car is tuned for E85 and I go to the pump and get E50 out of it that's gonna be pretty "bad". Terminology just varies I guess.

The guys at PBD constantly ask me when I send them logs if I have good E in it or bad. It's based on the blend because if I send them a picture of my tester with E70 in it they are gonna say that's bad and to find a different pump to get them logs with a better tank of gas because my car is tuned for E85 not E70.

I think the idea of "good" or "bad" E is predicated off what the car needs. Some people where I'm from run E30 because their fuel system can't handle any more *cough cough camaros* so they'll sit there and measure out a gallon and a half of E85 and call it no good if it's anything lower because then their math doesn't add up. Flex Fuel seems like a pain in the ass if you're running anything lower than E50 honestly. I could be wrong I've never done it but in order to make that sensor happy there's so much work.

If you're going to tune an E85 (without flex) it's best to tune on E70. That way you have a full 30 degrees of swing centered around E70 +/- 15 points which the computer can handle through short term fuel trims.

Even though E85 is allowed to range between 51 and 85, I've never seen it lower than high 60's from the pump. It doesn't make economical sense for a refiner or distributor to use more gasoline (the more expensive component) than necessary.

Sometimes I get E80+ from the pump, but most of the time I get around E70, E72, etc. The reason the tuners ask is because if they're tuning you for max timing on race quality E85 (from a container) then if you fill up with less ALC% you run the risk of severe knock and bad outcomes.

More commonly, if you tune for E85, you end up with idle issues when the A/F is too rich with lower grade E85, which if not addressed can cut your oil and wash down your cylinders, foul spark plugs, etc.

If you've invested a ton of money into a motor/setup, I highly recommend spending the extra $400 to get an ethanol sensor setup. I instantly know what my ALCH% is with an app on my phone so I know whether it's safe(r) to flog the car or just chill out until the next fill up. Otherwise you have to deal with tube tests and doing the calculations yourself if you're doing partial refills.

 

[bhvnce]

If you're going to tune an E85 (without flex) it's best to tune on E70. That way you have a full 30 degrees of swing centered around E70 +/- 15 points which the computer can handle through short term fuel trims.

Even though E85 is allowed to range between 51 and 85, I've never seen it lower than high 60's from the pump. It doesn't make economical sense for a refiner or distributor to use more gasoline (the more expensive component) than necessary.

Sometimes I get E80+ from the pump, but most of the time I get around E70, E72, etc. The reason the tuners ask is because if they're tuning you for max timing on race quality E85 (from a container) then if you fill up with less ALC% you run the risk of severe knock and bad outcomes.

More commonly, if you tune for E85, you end up with idle issues when the A/F is too rich with lower grade E85, which if not addressed can cut your oil and wash down your cylinders, foul spark plugs, etc.

If you've invested a ton of money into a motor/setup, I highly recommend spending the extra $400 to get an ethanol sensor setup. I instantly know what my ALCH% is with an app on my phone so I know whether it's safe(r) to flog the car or just chill out until the next fill up. Otherwise you have to deal with tube tests and doing the calculations yourself if you're doing partial refills.

I agree with this... not sure EXACTLY what PBD tuned my car for but it seemed anything below E75 is no good (Take this with a grain of salt because we only ran into a "bad E" situation once. Luckily for me, as stated before the station by my house is consistently well above that. I test E there once a week, or every couple of fill ups (whichever comes first) and it's always always consistently between 80% - 90%. Been doing this since the car was switched to E last June and only once have I seen anything below that at that particular station (Propel).

I've been thinking about the sensor but so far have found no real need for it because the consistency of my station is always top notch and it runs on full E so no need for partial fill ups like you said.

Attached is a test from 2 days ago. 9 times out of 10 they look like this lol.

 

[Angrey]

I agree with this... not sure EXACTLY what PBD tuned my car for but it seemed anything below E75 is no good (Take this with a grain of salt because we only ran into a "bad E" situation once. Luckily for me, as stated before the station by my house is consistently well above that. I test E there once a week, or every couple of fill ups (whichever comes first) and it's always always consistently between 80% - 90%. Been doing this since the car was switched to E last June and only once have I seen anything below that at that particular station (Propel).

I've been thinking about the sensor but so far have found no real need for it because the consistency of my station is always top notch and it runs on full E so no need for partial fill ups like you said.

Attached is a test from 2 days ago. 9 times out of 10 they look like this lol.

Be very careful. Your logic is flawed. I've gotten E80 several times from a station and then E70 the next fill up. Sometimes the Turnpike is high 70's, sometimes it's low 70's sometimes it's high 60's.

It's dangerous to tune to E85 race quality and then rely on station consistency. It only takes one resupply of lower grade on a hot day to smoke your motor. You should check every time and never trust that just because it was awesome yesterday that it will be the same today.

I personally follow a philosophy of over-engineer, under utilize, which is why I tuned on E70 and then had the tuner back off 4 degrees. At mid-high .70's lambda. I had originally shorted the rpm limit as well (even though I'm upgraded to handle 9k).

I want the car/motor to have some breathing room for imperfect conditions and to be honest, a single unloaded rip on the dyno with good IAT's isn't reflective of what I will almost assuredly ask of the car out on the street (more load, hot temps, back to back rips with higher IAT's, less than optimal fuel, etc).

The $400 ethanol sensor setup not only spares me from water bottles and station tests, but ensures I'm not lazy or in a hurry and can still check the quality. Most guys don't even do the tube tests properly, if you shake it and read, you'll notice at least a 5 point drop if you let it sit and settle properly over 15 minutes.

 

[Ruiner46]

Be very careful. Your logic is flawed. I've gotten E80 several times from a station and then E70 the next fill up. Sometimes the Turnpike is high 70's, sometimes it's low 70's sometimes it's high 60's.

It's dangerous to tune to E85 race quality and then rely on station consistency. It only takes one resupply of lower grade on a hot day to smoke your motor. You should check every time and never trust that just because it was awesome yesterday that it will be the same today.

I personally follow a philosophy of over-engineer, under utilize, which is why I tuned on E70 and then had the tuner back off 4 degrees. At mid-high .70's lambda. I had originally shorted the rpm limit as well (even though I'm upgraded to handle 9k).

I want the car/motor to have some breathing room for imperfect conditions and to be honest, a single unloaded rip on the dyno with good IAT's isn't reflective of what I will almost assuredly ask of the car out on the street (more load, hot temps, back to back rips with higher IAT's, less than optimal fuel, etc).

The $400 ethanol sensor setup not only spares me from water bottles and station tests, but ensures I'm not lazy or in a hurry and can still check the quality. Most guys don't even do the tube tests properly, if you shake it and read, you'll notice at least a 5 point drop if you let it sit and settle properly over 15 minutes.

If you tune to E85 and then get E70, isn't the car just going to be rich if fuel trims can't tune it to target lambda? Seems like it would be more dangerous to tune for E70 and get E85 and then need more fuel. As far as knock resistance goes, I doubt there's much difference between E70 and E85.

 

[Cory S]

If you tune to E85 and then get E70, isn't the car just going to be rich if fuel trims can't tune it to target lambda? Seems like it would be more dangerous to tune for E70 and get E85 and then need more fuel. As far as knock resistance goes, I doubt there's much difference between E70 and E85.

Exactly correct. Yes. Max effective spark is usually achieved between 67-73% in most combos on the Coyote platform. (21.5-23°)

 

[bhvnce]

Be very careful. Your logic is flawed. I've gotten E80 several times from a station and then E70 the next fill up. Sometimes the Turnpike is high 70's, sometimes it's low 70's sometimes it's high 60's.

It's dangerous to tune to E85 race quality and then rely on station consistency. It only takes one resupply of lower grade on a hot day to smoke your motor. You should check every time and never trust that just because it was awesome yesterday that it will be the same today.

I personally follow a philosophy of over-engineer, under utilize, which is why I tuned on E70 and then had the tuner back off 4 degrees. At mid-high .70's lambda. I had originally shorted the rpm limit as well (even though I'm upgraded to handle 9k).

I want the car/motor to have some breathing room for imperfect conditions and to be honest, a single unloaded rip on the dyno with good IAT's isn't reflective of what I will almost assuredly ask of the car out on the street (more load, hot temps, back to back rips with higher IAT's, less than optimal fuel, etc).

The $400 ethanol sensor setup not only spares me from water bottles and station tests, but ensures I'm not lazy or in a hurry and can still check the quality. Most guys don't even do the tube tests properly, if you shake it and read, you'll notice at least a 5 point drop if you let it sit and settle properly over 15 minutes.

I think I'm punching above my weight class here with y'all. I like the mechanical side of engines, I built my own motor, but I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a damn thing about the math behind the computer side of this stuff. I just go by what the tuner tells me. "E85 is good" "E70 no good". I do my little test at the gas station and I get E85-E90 95% of the time I'm happy. That's all I know hahaha the math behind this stuff is foreign to me but I'm learning.

 

[Cory S]

the tuner tells me. "E85 is good" "E70 no good".

I don't care if your tuner is someone from PBD, Lund, etrc. If they make a statement like that, they are muppets. Very narrow minded.

 

[K4fxd]

Hey K4 did you still want to see new logs?

Yes I do.

 

[Ruiner46]

I don't care if your tuner is someone from PBD, Lund, etrc. If they make a statement like that, they are muppets. Very narrow minded.

E70 isn't bad gas at all, but if the car isn't tuned for it, then the tuner may want to simplify the message to the customer... I've personally thought about switching to E70 since more stations around me seem to have that than E85. But like I said above, I'd hate to accidentally get a tank of E85 if I was tuned for E70.

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