MY 19 GT350 vs any GT350R?

[ecoboost321]

A fair question... And tbh I don't have an answer just yet. The main reason being, trying to find an R to drive and assess is rough. They're hard to come by and even harder to get to drive.

The list currently is this...

• 18+ SS 1LE (w/ 2SS trim, which is only 18+ so 2017s are out)
• 19+ GT350
• 16+ GT350R

I've owned a '17 SS 1LE, and did a cam and some mods and it made 575whp on E85 and with a race alignment the steering feel/handling/chassis was otherworldly - it's truly hard to state how good the Alpha chassis is. I sold my C7Z because it wasn't as good as the Camaro I owned before it.
Since then, the only chassis that was close to as good that I've driven was a '16 Cayman GT4.
I can't spend GT4 money as a good one (no accidents/damage, clean title, the right options) is around $90k.
I have a feeling that the GT350/R will be somewhere between 1LE and GT4 (and it's largely priced at that point as well)... However I have only been able to DRIVE a '19 GT350, and that drive was a little highway and some surface streets. The steering felt nice but I couldn't show it any corners to really feel it.

So I'm in this position where I'm thinking a 2SS 1LE is gonna be low 40s, and it'll cost me about $5k in parts/my own labor to get it to where my last 1LE was in performance terms.

A 19+ GT350 is going to be high 50s/low 60s depending on new leftover vs mildly used - but it has a LOT of the goods and I think it will be likely as good/better chassis/steering/suspension than a 1LE, but a little less power (after 1LE mods)

a GT350R is in the high 50s for a 16-18 and 19s are mid-high 60s... but obviously are pretty much ready to drive on-track immediately.

I'm not ultimately sure... I really wish I could at least drive a 16+ R or 19+ non-R in an area with some corners to really get a feel if the extra money will be well spent.

Hmmm, in your thoughts here on Camaro versus GT350/GT350R there is no mention of the Voodoo V8 versus the LS motor. For me, that was the first thing that swayed me towards my GT350R purchase. The way these motors make power and the NVH and feel are way different. Im curious if that’s a big deal for you because for me it made my cross off Camaro off my list right away, along with other cars like Cayman GT4, and the BMW M2 and 911 turbo I sold to buy my GT350R.

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[Seven]

I've done it for other members, you can drive one of mine if needed. The problem is im down in FL.

I can save you a bunch of trouble.... I started out in a standard 350 and wound up in 3 Rs. I had to let one of them go for my current CFTP.

I know that doesn't help you much, but the value in the VIN itself would be enough for me.

Oh, and if at all possible an HEP would be icing on the cake.

Honestly... Where in Florida?
HEP? Heritage pack? if so... no thanks - I don't want a car that is rare in any way that people will be weird about me tracking it/putting miles on it when I go to sell it. And I have a feeling people looking at HEP cars in a couple years will not be the type of folks that will want to buy my car.

I feel like I have to agree that if the choice is between a newer 350 or an older R I think a 19+ GT350 is just better spent money, it's got a lot of upgrades compared to early 350's. For ~60k I'm not sure personally I could justify a used Voodoo 1 engined R that has a rarity premium baked in regardless of year. That, as you said is also not even counting trying to find just the right R, which is part of the reason I went new myself, I didn't want to deal with searching all across the land for the perfect used R that I'd either not be able to evaluate or have to travel to test drive. If you're buying the car with the intention of driving the pants off it whether its frequent street driving or heavy track use I think a regular 350 is just less to worry about or deal with. If you're cross shopping with a Camaro then I assume the "magic" of the R's CF wheels are not really a dealbreaker anyway, so it's not fair to hold that against the regular GT350 for not having them, if that makes sense.

I'd agree with a lot of this. I would have APEX race parts wheels on the Camaro ASAP (or forgestars if I found a good deal), I think CF wheels are awesome... but I wouldn't spend the cash for a set unless the came on the car. And if they DO come on the car, I'd reserve them for trakc use only as I wouldn't be pushing the car hard enough on the street to notice the difference (as that's simply not safe on the street) and I wouldn't want road debris to ruin them.

Hmmm, in your thoughts here on Camaro versus GT350/GT350R there is no mention of the Voodoo V8 versus the LS motor. For me, that was the first thing that swayed me towards my GT350R purchase. The way these motors make power and the NVH and feel are way different. Im curious if that’s a big deal for you because for me it made my cross off Camaro off my list right away, along with other cars like Cayman GT4, and the BMW M2 and 911 turbo I sold to buy my GT350R.

I didn't mention it for 2 reasons...
1 - I assume most are aware of the different power delivery of an LT1 vs the voodo
2 - After the cam work I did on my last Camaro, and will do on the next one... The powerband/power delivery is VERY SIMILAR to the GT350... except it made more power (a little more than a GT350 with bolt-ons would). So to me the point is somewhat moot.

Yes the voodoo revs to 8250, but the LT1 with a proper cam and valve springs was revving to 7850, so it's a difference, but not a huge one.

 

[Tomster]

Honestly... Where in Florida?
HEP?


I'd agree with a lot of this. I would have APEX race parts wheels on the Camaro ASAP (or forgestars if I found a good deal), I think CF wheels are awesome... but I wouldn't spend the cash for a set unless the came on the car. And if they DO come on the car, I'd reserve them for trakc use only as I wouldn't be pushing the car hard enough on the street to notice the difference (as that's simply not safe on the street) and I wouldn't want road debris to ruin them.



I didn't mention it for 2 reasons...
1 - I assume most are aware of the different power delivery of an LT1 vs the voodo
2 - After the cam work I did on my last Camaro, and will do on the next one... The powerband/power delivery is VERY SIMILAR to the GT350... except it made more power (a little more than a GT350 with bolt-ons would). So to me the point is somewhat moot.

Yes the voodoo revs to 8250, but the LT1 with a proper cam and valve springs was revving to 7850, so it's a difference, but not a huge one.

No, no HEP's. But if you can get one, that is what I would do.

Central Florida

 

[Seven]

No, no HEP's. But if you can get one, that is what I would do.

Central Florida

Well the 350R I'm looking at is a '19 in FL... so it's not like a drive down to drive one is a stretch.

 

[svttim]

The FP350S has coil overs, so not the same springs. I assume you’re talking about the lowering springs, which are similar to the R springs, but not the same. They’re a bit stiffer than the non-R springs, but still a bit inferior. On the positive side, the lower springs + associated sway bars were designed for the non-R magneride system, so they’re a perfect upgrade (preferred over swapping in R springs without the R calibration, IMHO.

Also, the R has physically different valving in the struts + different springs and tuning in the magneride sensor. You can’t replicate this with the DSC - you’re forging your own path here. One last bit, the R has special ABS tuning that maximizes grip on the Cup 2s. Also can’t replicate that on your own without some serious work.

All this said, you can take the money you save from not buying an R and make a car a good 2-3 seconds a lap faster than a 2020 R easily if lap time is your goal - add a tune, a wing, a front splitter, new brake pads, and a set of Hoosiers and you‘lol stomp an R. I know this because i’ve done it. That said, it’s hard to beat the R’s performance in a street friendly package, attention to detail, and resale value. Depends what you pay for an R. If your goal is to substantially modify the car, Stay clear of the R. There are better components out there for a serious track or race car



The R is NOT a factory race car. The FP350S mostly is, but not the R. It’s a track-focused model, but it’s not a race car. Too easy to overheat, it’s not setup to run slicks, weighs too much, and has no safety equipment. Compared to a true race car, it’s FAR from one.
I do agree with you about it being a fantastic car right off the showroom floor. Fantastic HPDE

My point was it is fast out of the box, competitive with Race cars from just a few years ago. even the 350S is lacking for competition.

Night and day is so subjective. To me, night and day is Miata vs. Mustang. But I don’t think you’re implying that the difference between the R and the non-R is similar to comparing a Miata and Mustang for performance.

I’ve driven both on track, instructed in plenty, etc. I have 1000s of laps at COTA in both - the difference is apparent in stock form. But put Cup2s on a non-R and I bet I could fool most if they couldn’t visibly see what car they’re driving. The laptimes for sure would fool them.

Personally, I’d argue that the value of the R is more about feel than lap time. The fancy CF wheels and updated suspension/brake tuning is objectively better no doubt, but the margin is so small that it won’t really make a difference in lap time. As a related point, when I put all solid bushings in the rear end of my car, it felt substantially better. But it doesn’t directly improve lap time much. It just feels better and more confidence inspiring. Outside of tires, I’d argue the same is mostly true for the R.

I’d still argue that 1 set of R compounds on a non-R eliminates 95% of the R’s performance margin over the non-R for the majority of drivers. My own experience supports this.

The discussion was not about majority of drivers. Its about the car. At VIR the R was 4 seconds faster then the base car. If anyone says that is not substantial they are not serious track people. However, I agree the Majority cant drive either car to its limit.


I feel this, but do think an important note here is that you appear to have been measuring your car against an R, so it’s inevitable that you were going to run out of steam and be unsatisfied. Shoot past the R for your goals, and I think assessment would change.



But agree, if your goal is the R - then just get the R to begin with.

 

[ecoboost321]

Honestly... Where in Florida?
HEP? Heritage pack? if so... no thanks - I don't want a car that is rare in any way that people will be weird about me tracking it/putting miles on it when I go to sell it. And I have a feeling people looking at HEP cars in a couple years will not be the type of folks that will want to buy my car.


I'd agree with a lot of this. I would have APEX race parts wheels on the Camaro ASAP (or forgestars if I found a good deal), I think CF wheels are awesome... but I wouldn't spend the cash for a set unless the came on the car. And if they DO come on the car, I'd reserve them for trakc use only as I wouldn't be pushing the car hard enough on the street to notice the difference (as that's simply not safe on the street) and I wouldn't want road debris to ruin them.



I didn't mention it for 2 reasons...
1 - I assume most are aware of the different power delivery of an LT1 vs the voodo
2 - After the cam work I did on my last Camaro, and will do on the next one... The powerband/power delivery is VERY SIMILAR to the GT350... except it made more power (a little more than a GT350 with bolt-ons would). So to me the point is somewhat moot.

Yes the voodoo revs to 8250, but the LT1 with a proper cam and valve springs was revving to 7850, so it's a difference, but not a huge one.

So by this logic, if a modified LS is basically the same as a stock Voodoo engine to you, then it sounds like you have all of the information you need to make a decision. Lots of good information in this thread for a new buyer. And kudos to Tomster offering up his GT350R for a test drive. Good luck in your purchase !

 

[Tomster]

Well the 350R I'm looking at is a '19 in FL... so it's not like a drive down to drive one is a stretch.

Let me know if it becomes serious.

I had another idea..... There are used Rs at dealerships all over. Why not go do a test drive?

 

[Rusherific]

Yes the voodoo revs to 8250, but the LT1 with a proper cam and valve springs was revving to 7850, so it's a difference, but not a huge one.

I think you've said you've driven a GT350 but I don't know how much you got to push it. I can't speak to how the LT1 performs, especially modified, but I can say that i have never in my car enthusiast life heard or felt anything like the Voodoo motor revving out.

I'm not talking about just that it is loud or has a unique flat-plane sound....I've been watching GT350 videos online for years like everyone else since it came out, I've seen a couple tooling around on the street before. But none of that prepared me in the slightest for the first time I actually took it wide open to redline through a few gears, I still remember it vividly. Right around 4K it transforms from a generic rumbly V8 into this incredibly smooth, almost porsche-like rev-out maniac and it almost gets quieter, you can tell you're in its happy place. An aircraft engine is the closest thing I can think of honestly, it feels free and endless and untethered to anything. I've never driven a stick shift car where you hit the next gear and it's just bang more of the same power again, not more, not less, no peaks or falloffs. Shifting at redline, each gear is just a solid, flat, brick of power that never quits. Sure there's higher power motors or others with equally flat power bands, but the whole package, there's just nothing else like it.

I get that's all subjective and maybe doesn't matter in your decision making, but my point is that I wouldn't take just any other engine with similar power and redline and call it even.

 

[dpAtlanta]

But none of that prepared me in the slightest for the first time I actually took it wide open to redline through a few gears, I still remember it vividly. Right around 4K it transforms from a generic rumbly V8 into this incredibly smooth, almost porsche-like rev-out maniac and it almost gets quieter, you can tell you're in its happy place. An aircraft engine is the closest thing I can think of honestly, it feels free and endless and untethered to anything. I've never driven a stick shift car where you hit the next gear and it's just bang more of the same power again, not more, not less, no peaks or falloffs. Shifting at redline, each gear is just a solid, flat, brick of power that never quits.

This is just plain Car Porn......................!
If Penthouse and Car&Driver ever decide to make a magazine, they have found their author.

 

[pilotgore]

A fair question... And tbh I don't have an answer just yet. The main reason being, trying to find an R to drive and assess is rough. They're hard to come by and even harder to get to drive.

The list currently is this...

• 18+ SS 1LE (w/ 2SS trim, which is only 18+ so 2017s are out)
• 19+ GT350
• 16+ GT350R

I've owned a '17 SS 1LE, and did a cam and some mods and it made 575whp on E85 and with a race alignment the steering feel/handling/chassis was otherworldly - it's truly hard to state how good the Alpha chassis is. I sold my C7Z because it wasn't as good as the Camaro I owned before it.
Since then, the only chassis that was close to as good that I've driven was a '16 Cayman GT4.
I can't spend GT4 money as a good one (no accidents/damage, clean title, the right options) is around $90k.
I have a feeling that the GT350/R will be somewhere between 1LE and GT4 (and it's largely priced at that point as well)... However I have only been able to DRIVE a '19 GT350, and that drive was a little highway and some surface streets. The steering felt nice but I couldn't show it any corners to really feel it.

So I'm in this position where I'm thinking a 2SS 1LE is gonna be low 40s, and it'll cost me about $5k in parts/my own labor to get it to where my last 1LE was in performance terms.

A 19+ GT350 is going to be high 50s/low 60s depending on new leftover vs mildly used - but it has a LOT of the goods and I think it will be likely as good/better chassis/steering/suspension than a 1LE, but a little less power (after 1LE mods)

a GT350R is in the high 50s for a 16-18 and 19s are mid-high 60s... but obviously are pretty much ready to drive on-track immediately.

I'm not ultimately sure... I really wish I could at least drive a 16+ R or 19+ non-R in an area with some corners to really get a feel if the extra money will be well spent.

Im not just a ford guy, and I can say objectively that this engine is special compared to anything else out there at the price point. So.... definitely stick with a voodoo.

Now, ask yourself, for the same money do you want a 4 year used car that’s 1.11% faster “as determined by Andy Pilgrim (2019 gt350 vs 2020 gt350R), or do you want a 5 years 60k powertrain warranty for a car you’ll be tracking? Lots of value there.

 

[GT30fan]

This is my .02 cents, I already know I will get some hate, but this is my thoughts, coming from being a Porsche guy. My understanding from listening to Randy's comments when comparing the 2 versions, and the comments from the head of Ford Performance was ...."it's most all in the shoes". "I can really feel the added grip of the R's cups". etc etc. While not quite reaching the amazing featherweight of the carbon wheels, (which I seem to trip on a set of these for sale near constantly....so strange for a low production rim), adding forged wheels that are lighter then stock is easy. And can be just resold later. I'd think underneath it all most of us really know a 2019 and up base with a set of Forgeline or HRE super lightweight rims and the more aggressive Cup 2 version tire than the base's "cup 2 lite" would bring the 2 models REALLY close, the hardcore R fans may tell themselves "he still just doesn't get it", but I think I do, and posters and sales people and badges won't change that. With forged rim/ standard cup 2's, the R then would still have some, but limited advantages (different 'settings' doesn't mean all that much better, but if for nothing else, Marketing would HAVE to make things different to get people to get buy in). The wing on the R is amazing but a base swing with Gurney is going to keep your wheels down, your not going to fly away, trust me, its enough your not going to think "gee, if only I had even more down-force on the tail for the track days". The swing is on the newest base GT500 and Mach 1's for a reason. I think it would be so minor that the drivers skills would negate any difference, which is hands down the most important variable you can't gimmick or "buy" your way out of. And you would still be way under the prices of an R and you can always sell off the forged rims separately when done. So...on one hand, you have the base... less chin splitter curb rash, cooled seats...back seat standard (best part is it folds flat and it's huge trunk then) costs less money, etc ..... but on the other hand, your don't have designer, purebred dog breeder bragging rights. I watched my share of fancy cars, including these Shelby's, get beat on the track by the Focus and Hellcats, cuz' their drivers were really good. Let's face it, none of these are 'real' race cars like the GT4, it's just how close to that you want to live with day to day and I feel with such a small difference, I'd prefer the better daily car as would my particular passenger taking this bad-ass on trips. If Fords own numbers show how close performance-wise they are and that's NOT with forged wheels and full bore Cup 2's, I for one am convinced. But your mileage may vary

 

[fpa1974]

I feel this, but do think an important note here is that you appear to have been measuring your car against an R, so it’s inevitable that you were going to run out of steam and be unsatisfied. Shoot past the R for your goals, and I think assessment would change.

But agree, if your goal is the R - then just get the R to begin with.

You are right in the way that I measured it from the feel point of view and not necessarily lap times. It is like your example with the solid bushings - they make the car feel better and driver be more confident. I think the same applies to the suspension tuning on the R, at least IMO (that plus the obvious CF wheels and Cup2s). You most definitely take a base car and make it faster than the R but I was not after that as I said. For me both versions are more than capable and give me opportunities to grow as a driver on the track, I just wanted that extra special sauce for the street too.

 

[GT30fan]

You are right in the way that I measured it from the feel point of view and not necessarily lap times. It is like your example with the solid bushings - they make the car feel better and driver be more confident. I think the same applies to the suspension tuning on the R, at least IMO (that plus the obvious CF wheels and Cup2s). You most definitely take a base car and make it faster than the R but I was not after that as I said. For me both versions are more than capable and give me opportunities to grow as a driver on the track, I just wanted that extra special sauce for the street too.

Very cool. No wrong choices here, just what you think is right for you. I love the R. The coolest thing ever!!! But I just couldn't justify it for myself. Reasons in the above past post....

 

[Brian@BMVK]

You could build a faster car but, again, not for the price of an R

Give me $70k and I'll build a GT that will make a stock R look slow. C'mon man. That's hilariously wrong.

The R is amazing. It's in a tier of track-ready road cars that is very small. Don't be deluded however, into thinking it's a racecar or cannot be easily beaten within the same platform for a lot less.

 

[DrumReaper]

Give me $70k and I'll build a GT that will make a stock R look slow. C'mon man. That's hilariously wrong.

The R is amazing. It's in a tier of track-ready road cars that is very small. Don't be deluded however, into thinking it's a racecar or cannot be easily beaten within the same platform for a lot less.

While comfortably running to the grocery store.

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