Won't start, good battery.

[hal_farthead]

@sirboom, thanks for the info. No LEDs, 5200 miles and almost completely stock. I've initiated a case with Ford Customer Care, so we'll see where it goes from here, but I'll definitely listen to anything anyone has to offer about the problem.

I've been to "the google" and looked on 3 or 4 forums, but I can't come up with anything.

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[keltymd]

[MENTION=18756]DanDglassman[/MENTION] yea the connections are tight, only the starter assembly bolt was loose.


-----

Well I decided I'd just go yank the starter off. Here it is:

http://imgur.com/jWru4lj

http://imgur.com/F1cijaY

The middle bolt was also loose. Just because things can't be too easy the hardest to reach top bolt was super tight. It was the only thing holding the damn starter. Had to use some extensions but it's very do-able without taking anything else off in case anyone is wondering. I needed a 10mm socket, 13mm socket, 10mm wrench and assortment of extensions for the top bolt. Overall about 30 minutes to remove, not a terrible placement from Ford, so at least that's nice.

Well I sent 12V to the motor, sent 12V to the solenoid and tried both at the same time. Everything seems to work on the starter. I can definitely hear the solenoid pop on when it's in the car, because it's the same sound it makes outside of it.

I cranked the engine manually, it's not seized. So... weak starter?

----

Update:

I re-installed the starter and the car is now starting again. I don't have a concrete explanation for this. The only thing I can think is that [MENTION=16083]GTBOB[/MENTION] is right and the starter may have jammed itself somehow since it had lose/backed out bolts and removing and re-installing it fixed things. Here is a play by play again:

1. Car was parked in a fully functional state.
2. Car didn't start.
3. Battery was suspected, checked fine with multimeter, second known working battery was used to test too.
4. Solenoid was activating with ignition as you could hear it pop loud and clear.
5. Starter was very hot after attempting ignition.
6. Starter had one backed out bolt, one loose bolt and a way over torqued bolt holding it in place.
7. I removed the starter and cleaned the bolts.
8. I bench tested the starter to verify that the motor worked, solenoid worked, and switched power to solenoid worked. Starter seemed fine.
9. I cranked the engine manually to verify it was not seized, it turned fine.
10. I re-installed the starter using a little bit of thread lock on the cleaned bolts.
11. Car starts fine, drove around, parked it, started it again, no issues.

The starter uses Chassis ground. So there is no ground lead going to the starter so it uses the surface contact with the engine/tranny to get ground. Most of that ground comes through the bolts holding it to the engine Tranny. Loose bolt=bad ground

 

[keltymd]

you have a ground issue. Trace the ground leads from the battery to all connections on the chassis and engine.

 

[FordService]

Here is a play by play again:

1. Car was parked in a fully functional state.
2. Car didn't start.
3. Battery was suspected, checked fine with multimeter, second known working battery was used to test too.
4. Solenoid was activating with ignition as you could hear it pop loud and clear.
5. Starter was very hot after attempting ignition.
6. Starter had one backed out bolt, one loose bolt and a way over torqued bolt holding it in place.
7. I removed the starter and cleaned the bolts.
8. I bench tested the starter to verify that the motor worked, solenoid worked, and switched power to solenoid worked. Starter seemed fine.
9. I cranked the engine manually to verify it was not seized, it turned fine.
10. I re-installed the starter using a little bit of thread lock on the cleaned bolts.
11. Car starts fine, drove around, parked it, started it again, no issues.

Oesman,

My name is Tricia, and I’m one of the U.S. Ford Customer Service Representatives on this forum. I just wanted to check in with you, and get the status of your vehicle. Is your Stang still experiencing these symptoms? If so, I recommend taking your vehicle to a Ford Dealer to get diagnosed. You can set an appointment, here.

In the meantime, please PM your full name, VIN, dealer, mileage, and best daytime phone number. I’ll loop in a customer service manager for your region to assist!

@sirboom, thanks for the info. No LEDs, 5200 miles and almost completely stock. I've initiated a case with Ford Customer Care, so we'll see where it goes from here, but I'll definitely listen to anything anyone has to offer about the problem...

Hello hal_farthead,

Let us know if you need to add any updates to your case. You can reach us, here. Be sure to PM your case number along with your VIN, and we will get right on it!

Tricia

 

[GT Pony]

Anyone here have the service manual and could look up what the bolt torque spec is on the starter bolts? I'm going to check mine when I do my oil change here in next week or so.

 

[oesman]

[MENTION=7992]FordService[/MENTION],

Tricia, the car is fine now, the symptoms have not reoccured since I re-installed the starter. Just very disappointing to see a car with 3.6K miles and a starter with loose/backed out bolts from the factory. Makes me paranoid about what other bolts are backing out on this car while I'm driving...


[MENTION=7629]GT_Pony[/MENTION],

They are 10mm bolts, can't be a whole ton of torque. I applied fairly moderate torque with a medium sized socket. I wouldn't try to hulk them down just use your best judgement considering how thin the bolts are. Think like slide bolts that calipers traditionally have, it's that kind of torque. I used thread lock on mine. If you find they are loose I'd suggest putting a small amount on. Note that the top bolt is gonna seem like the motor mount has to be removed, but trust me you can get in there and take it off. The easiest way is a short ratcheting 10mm wrench. If you don't have one a socket will work if it's small enough and you might have to play with some extensions. Once you figure it out it's not difficult.

[MENTION=26181]keltymd[/MENTION],

I doubt it was a ground issue and I realize starters ground on chassis. Because:

- The solenoid was activating (loud solenoid pop) and switched power was working.
- The starter itself would get physically hot despite not cranking the engine.
- One of the bolts was on tight and the starter itself would not budge when pushed by hand.

The only working theory I have is that the two loose bolts let the starter move which over tightened the top bolt and the starter jammed itself against the flywheel somehow when that happened. Hence it was getting hot unable to turn it's gear when the solenoid and starter motor would activate on switched power.

 

[keltymd]

what do you think happens to an electric circuit with a bad ground. Everything gets damn hot due to resistance

 

[oesman]

what do you think happens to an electric circuit with a bad ground. Everything gets damn hot due to resistance

It was not a ground issue. I could produce a good enough ground by touching the corner of the starter to the chassis. I can demonstrate this by lightly touching the corner of the starter to the neutral in my house and putting 12V to the motor's positive terminal. In fact this was one of the bench tests I did to the starter when I had it out. Clearly you don't need a million square inches of ground contact to ground it...

Furthermore as I've already said the starter itself wasn't loose, just the two bolts, hence my theory that it wedged itself and over-tightened the top bolt.

 

[DrElectron]

Correction

what do you think happens to an electric circuit with a bad ground. Everything gets damn hot due to resistance

When you have a bad ground, nothing happens because the circuit is not complete. That's why if your starter is not grounded, car does not start.

When you have a short to ground, that is when shit happens and things get very hot.

 

[oesman]

When you have a bad ground, nothing happens because the circuit is not complete. That's why if your starter is not grounded, car does not start.

When you have a short to ground, that is when shit happens and things get very hot.

If the ground is poor (loose connection, corrosion, etc...) the circuit may complete, but due to high resistance will generate heat. He's not wrong about that. But you are right that a broken ground will not complete a circuit.

You're right that a short to ground will generate heat and blow a fuse or melt the wire if it's not fused correctly.

In my case I was getting neither a bad ground or a short.

 

[Lost]

I can demonstrate this by lightly touching the corner of the starter to the neutral in my house and putting 12V to the motor's positive terminal.

Wait!. Wut?

 

[oesman]

Wait!. Wut?

The starter grounds itself to the chassis. It doesn't have a neutral/ground wire like most devices. As long as it's snug against the chassis it will ground itself. A device like a starter doesn't need a massive ground connection, it's fine as long as it's touching the chassis.

So for example when you bench test a starter you just put a neutral wire anywhere on the starter assembly and then put a 12V wire on on the starter motor and watch it spin, then you can move the wire to test the solenoid or put it on the positive terminal of the starter assembly and bridge it to the switched power with a screw driver. Your house has neutrals everywhere, in every power outlet. For 12V you can use a car battery or in my case a high amp car starter which also uses your house neutral when you plug it into the wall.

 

[GatorHunter]

i would agree with oesman, the starter got loose, spun a little and the armature got stuck, that why he could hear a click, with no spin, the starter will continue to try and spin, but cant and generate heat, that's why it was hot.

That reminds me, got to tell the wife to get that checked

 

[DrElectron]

If the ground is poor (loose connection, corrosion, etc...) the circuit may complete, but due to high resistance will generate heat. He's not wrong about that. But you are right that a broken ground will not complete a circuit.

You're right that a short to ground will generate heat and blow a fuse or melt the wire if it's not fused correctly.

In my case I was getting neither a bad ground or a short.

Sorry, but you guys are wrong. Basically, the more resistance in the circuit, the LESS heat (power). Think of it this way, when you have no ground connection, resistance is infinite but there is no power or heat. The equation is P=V*V/R or power equals voltage squared divided by resistance. More R gives you less P. Now consider the short which is equivalent to saying R=0. When that happens, P becomes infinite! FYI, I have a masters in Electrical Engineering but if you don't believe me or you find this confusing, just google Ohm's Law.

 

[oesman]

Sorry, but you guys are wrong. Basically, the more resistance in the circuit, the LESS heat (power). Think of it this way, when you have no ground connection, resistance is infinite but there is no power or heat. The equation is P=V*V/R or power equals voltage squared divided by resistance. More R gives you less P. Now consider the short which is equivalent to saying R=0. When that happens, P becomes infinite! FYI, I have a masters in Electrical Engineering but if you don't believe me or you find this confusing, just google Ohm's Law.

I've always seen loose plugs burn up :-/.

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