Square vs Staggered: is it really a big deal?

[Sal33n]

So I have an example and question for the knowledgeable folks here. Let's say I have a 275 tire square setup. That makes the width of my tires about 10.8 inches at all four corners. With this setup the car will behave in a particular way when cornering.

If I change out the rears to 305's I have increased the rear tire widths to 12 inches each or about 1.2 inches more width per tire. Without changing the front width how does this change cornering characteristics? Would it be that much noticeable from the original square setup and why would it make cornering worse? With so much meat already on the front would it matter or make a difference?

This has been bugging me for a while as I would like to upgrade my current wheel/tire combo of 275 square to something bigger, however most tire sites seem to steer you towards a staggered setup and don't seem to have square setup options as defaults to choose unless you start customizing the tire order. Quite a few also seem to list the larger wheels as "rears only" which I do not understand why.

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[shelbywannabe]

opcorn:

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Typically with a RWD car with front engine and a staggered setup, understeer is more pronounced vs. a square setup.

I am running 285/305 setup on my car. My tires are really sticky and driving on the street and mountain runs, with my suspension setup, I have not noticed any understeer, yet. I have been able to apply the throttle in turns and get the rearend to come around a bit, too.

 

[CommyO]

I think a staggered setup roots from ye ole drag racing days where the front would have barely any tire while rear having more tire than rim. I personally prefer a square setup which is what I'll do. Also a staggered setup provides no real performance benefit either and people just get it for the looks. Also note that some people go staggered to prevent rubbing up front while maintaining a 'fatass' rear

TL;DR
Get a square setup that doesn't rub for better performance and handling

 

[Doctor Fishtail]

Staggered setups get more women.

 

[NightmareMoon]

The car is more balanced at the limit with a square setup instead of being biased towards understeer.

During corner entry and mid-corner, handling dexterity improves with the better balance.

On corner exit however, you probably want that extra large rear tire to help put power down.

Yeah, its counter-intuitive that a smaller tire might be better for handling, and you really have to get down into the details of your definition of 'handling' (or experience it first-hand) to understand it.

 

[info@trinityautosport]

Square setups are more neutral, rather than having the tendency to understeer

 

[Rustang]

Not sure if this matters much but I have found wider front tires tend to follow grooves in the road more and don't track as well on roads wit imperfections.

 

[Sal33n]

So let's take the example from my original post. Running a square 275 setup I can approach a given corner at 60mph for example before front tires lose grip. Are you all saying if I increase the rear tire size to a 305 (for example) that I will now introduce understeer and will not be able to take that same corner at that speed and will have to reduce my speed because the front will now want to keep going straight (understeer)??? In this example I have not changed the 275 front tire size, only the rears are wider.

 

[daltron]

Not sure if this matters much but I have found wider front tires tend to follow grooves in the road more and don't track as well on roads wit imperfections.

Tramlining.

 

[daltron]

So let's take the example from my original post. Running a square 275 setup I can approach a given corner at 60mph for example before front tires lose grip. Are you all saying if I increase the rear tire size to a 305 (for example) that I will now introduce understeer and will not be able to take that same corner at that speed and will have to reduce my speed because the front will now want to keep going straight (understeer)??? In this example I have not changed the 275 front tire size, only the rears are wider.

Why not 295 squared? Or 305?

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Why not 295 squared? Or 305?

I think to run 305s upfront, you need coilovers if memory serves me.

 

[BmacIL]

While square setups are often great for improving balance during steady-state cornering, typically you want a hint of understeer for a high-powered RWD car on a track, which you neutralize with power application after the apex of a turn (no, not drifting lol). It makes the car predictable at the limit. You can do this with tires or setup or both. For a lot of us, a square setup is more economical and practical, and just tune around it. 275 square or 285 square is a solid setup.

For autocross a square setup is ideal, as you usually never have enough front-end grip and getting into the corner fast and hard is important.

 

[Ugly John]

^^^^^This.

Of course, there are other ways to counteract understeer as well, such as a stiffer rear sway.

It depends on what you're looking for your car to do well - autocross you want to get rid of the stability from understeer. Tracking I'd imagine you'd want more stability. The autocross/tracking section has a lot of info on car setup for different purposes, and with different limitations.

So, your first step is to figure out exactly what you want your car to do, and then figure out the limitations you have.

For example, for my autocross car, I want to get rid of understeer and make it more neutral, to allow it to enter corners as fast as possible. But, to stay in the F-street class, I have to run the same width wheels as the car came with, so I'm stuck with the staggered wheel setup. I added a stiffer rear sway bar to help reduce understeer and when I replace my stock tires, I'll be looking to see what I can do for a square setup on the stock wheels....

One HUGE advantage of having a true square setup is you can rotate your tires to even wear and prolong tire life. That's why I have a square setup on order for my daily drivers.

 

[Nine]

So let's take the example from my original post. Running a square 275 setup I can approach a given corner at 60mph for example before front tires lose grip. Are you all saying if I increase the rear tire size to a 305 (for example) that I will now introduce understeer and will not be able to take that same corner at that speed and will have to reduce my speed because the front will now want to keep going straight (understeer)??? In this example I have not changed the 275 front tire size, only the rears are wider.

You would be able to do the same speed. If the front tires are losing traction first then adding more rear tire (skewing the car even more towards understeer if everything else remains the same) isn't going to cause the fronts to break loose sooner.

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