Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[4V Mayhem]

It is just fine for the Camaro to be faster, but you still don't get what a difference testing on different days and conditions can mean. Under 1 second is nearly identical. And the 1SS isn't $10k less than a PP1, if equally optioned. The MT test car was a loaded premium. A base 1SS has cloth seats and very basic options. An even test comparison for people cross shopping would be a base 1SS vs a base PP1.

0.9 sec is under 1 sec. And that is nowhere even close to being identical. Under 0.2 sec could be considered identical but not if it is a consistent 0.2 sec loss. If you lose every time by 0.2 sec then you're just slower and that's that.

And come on, you can't sit here and say that every test is rigged against the Mustang. What about the years where the GT was faster? What about when the GT350 beat the ZL1 and A28? What about them picking the GT350R over the ZL1 despite the ZL1 having a decisive performance win in each category? What about all the praise the Boss 302 got? So now Ford just happens to make a Mustang that can't outperform the competition and it's all rigged? Come on.

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[bootlegger]

0.9 sec is under 1 sec. And that is nowhere even close to being identical. Under 0.2 sec could be considered identical but not if it is a consistent 0.2 sec loss. If you lose every time by 0.2 sec then you're just slower and that's that.

And come on, you can't sit here and say that every test is rigged against the Mustang. What about the years where the GT was faster? What about when the GT350 beat the ZL1 and A28? What about them picking the GT350R over the ZL1 despite the ZL1 having a decisive performance win in each category? What about all the praise the Boss 302 got? So now Ford just happens to make a Mustang that can't outperform the competition and it's all rigged? Come on.

I never said any test was rigged. I said what would be a good head to head for people cross shopping. And for the millionth time, the 18 PP1 was never tested head to head with a 1SS. All we have to go by is track time on different days and different years. The 18 PP1 vs 18 1LE was a real head to head test. Clearly, the 1LE is much faster.

 

[thehunterooo]

Our friend MEDISIN was kind enough to give us the finals for 2017. More people chose Camaro.

Retail ATP's 2017 (JDPin)
Camaro: $39,514
Challenger: $35,498
Mustang: $33,792

Retail Sales 2017
Camaro: 65,222
Mustang: 60,581
Challenger: 45,821

Friend to you maybe. Very hateful person as well just doesn't live in the vs section with the other cancer :lol:

Funny thing is they disappeared for months then cherry picks data to create more lies.

 

[thehunterooo]

OK bigshot, look at what was asked by millhouse and I answered it. So get off your big horse and take a chill pill/

You won't answer my question though :lol:

 

[02gtnh]

You won't answer my question though :lol:

:shrug: no clue on what your talking about.

 

[millhouse]

0.9 sec is under 1 sec. And that is nowhere even close to being identical. Under 0.2 sec could be considered identical but not if it is a consistent 0.2 sec loss. If you lose every time by 0.2 sec then you're just slower and that's that.

And come on, you can't sit here and say that every test is rigged against the Mustang. What about the years where the GT was faster? What about when the GT350 beat the ZL1 and A28? What about them picking the GT350R over the ZL1 despite the ZL1 having a decisive performance win in each category? What about all the praise the Boss 302 got? So now Ford just happens to make a Mustang that can't outperform the competition and it's all rigged? Come on.

"The second thing you should note is that the Camaro ZL1 was 1.74 seconds slower this time out than it was the last time (1:27.90 versus 1:26.16; the GT350R ran a 1:28.29). Same car, same track, same driver."

"Sharp-eyed readers will notice that the Camaro was significantly slower in its Willow Springs track test this time around. Same car, same track. Why? Motor Trend’s resident hot-shoe Randy Pobst has the answers:

The lap time discrepancy here is alarming but not unusual in the track world. In a situation similar to the Dodge Viper ACR in its Best Driver’s Car testing, ultimate lap times can be greatly affected by a track condition known as a green track."

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...l1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

Randy also set a track record in the Viper ACR at laguna turning a 1:28.65 yet a year later was only able to turn a 1:31.58 (nearly 3 full seconds slower).

I think his point is...unless cars were tested on the same day with the same driver, 1 second is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Hack]

Camaro (motortrend) should have requested a 2018 GT350 to test H2H with the 1LE, ya gotta wonder what the comments and or excuses would be when the 1LE beat the GT350 Non R

I would be surprised if that would happen. The GT350 has significantly more power and it has fairly good tires.

Plus, it has all the other advantages of the Mustang over the Camaro - interior ergonomics, etc. Plus it has the Voodoo. And Ford's chassis and suspension tuning are top notch - much better than the Camaro's.

Remember that several reviewers have picked the GT350 R over the ZL-1. A Camaro with more power than the Ford, but it's all the other things that the Ford does better.

I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could find the right track and get the 1LE to edge out the GT350, but why even do the comparison? The GT350 is such a special car with a special engine There's nothing about the 1LE that says "gotta have it".

 

[tyler2k]

I would be surprised if that would happen. The GT350 has significantly more power and it has fairly good tires.

Plus, it has all the other advantages of the Mustang over the Camaro - interior ergonomics, etc. Plus it has the Voodoo. And Ford's chassis and suspension tuning are top notch - much better than the Camaro's.

Remember that several reviewers have picked the GT350 R over the ZL-1. A Camaro with more power than the Ford, but it's all the other things that the Ford does better.

I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could find the right track and get the 1LE to edge out the GT350, but why even do the comparison? The GT350 is such a special car with a special engine There's nothing about the 1LE that says "gotta have it".

except the fact that everyone who reviews says its got super car performance for half the cost. only special thing about thr gt350 is the motor, which if you take a look at the gt350 section isn't the greatest for reliability. and tell me how Ford's chassis and suspension are better, the zl1 best it, and please leave out the oh is supercharged crap you should like camaro guys towards the terminator, the zl1 can be had cheaper then the r, by a good margin, and still beats it, and let's not compare the track zl1 1le to the track gt350r. only thing ford does better is daily livability.

 

[Hack]

except the fact that everyone who reviews says its got super car performance for half the cost. only special thing about thr gt350 is the motor, which if you take a look at the gt350 section isn't the greatest for reliability. and tell me how Ford's chassis and suspension are better, the zl1 best it, and please leave out the oh is supercharged crap you should like camaro guys towards the terminator, the zl1 can be had cheaper then the r, by a good margin, and still beats it, and let's not compare the track zl1 1le to the track gt350r. only thing ford does better is daily livability.

SUPER CAR!!!

 

[Khell86]

You can compare fleet and retails sales all you want, but in the end its about revenue and profit. We won't be able to figure out the profit, but we can sure as hell figure out the revenue and Ford is winning despite the higher (alleged) ATP's posted by the camaro dude.

Winning is winning.

 

[tyler2k]

SUPER CAR!!!

it's not even close to being called a super car, it's got super car performance, not my words but reviewers

 

[4V Mayhem]

"The second thing you should note is that the Camaro ZL1 was 1.74 seconds slower this time out than it was the last time (1:27.90 versus 1:26.16; the GT350R ran a 1:28.29). Same car, same track, same driver."

"Sharp-eyed readers will notice that the Camaro was significantly slower in its Willow Springs track test this time around. Same car, same track. Why? Motor Trend’s resident hot-shoe Randy Pobst has the answers:

The lap time discrepancy here is alarming but not unusual in the track world. In a situation similar to the Dodge Viper ACR in its Best Driver’s Car testing, ultimate lap times can be greatly affected by a track condition known as a green track."

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...l1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

Randy also set a track record in the Viper ACR at laguna turning a 1:28.65 yet a year later was only able to turn a 1:31.58 (nearly 3 full seconds slower).

I think his point is...unless cars were tested on the same day with the same driver, 1 second is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

If that answer satisfies you then who am I to argue...

 

[w3rkn]

Just chiming in on the sales vs performance discussion here. For any buyer, there are multiple factors to consider when making a purchase. A series of trade-offs.

Mustang is a much better alternative if you are a golfer. Two bags fit in the trunk. I am a golfer. My bag will fit in the trunk (top up) but I have a hell of a time getting it through the weird shaped opening. Since the rear seats don't fold down on the convertible, that's the only way I can get them in the trunk. Fact is, though, I usually go to the golf course with the top down and my bag(s) on the rear seat. As irrritating as it is to get the bag in the trunk, I would not trade the performance of the car or the functionality of the power top for lesser performance and a better trunk.

Pasting here my honest assessment of Mustang / Camaro / Challenger / Charger that I posted in a similar thread in Camaro6....

Appearance:Eye of the beholder. My eye says Camaro, Mustang, Charger, Challenger. Your order may be different
Straight Line Performance: Camaro, Hellcat, Mustang
Handling, normal drive: Camaro, Mustang, Charger + Challenger
Handling, spirited driving: Camaro, Mustang, a whole bunch of other cars, Charger + Challenger
Seating, driver: Tie. Mustang wins for general comfort, Camaro wins for keeping me planted
Seating, frt pass: Charger + Challenger, Mustang, Camaro
Seating Rear:Charger + Challenger, Mustang, Camaro
Trunk:Charger + Challenger, Mustang, Camaro
Fuel Economy: Camaro, Mustang, Charger + Challenger
Sound: Mustang (especially GT350), Camaro, Charger + Challenger
Feature Content: Camaro, Charger + Challenger, Mustang (may move up for '18)

That's pretty much in order of priority for me.

One other thing, specific to my only wanting a convertible. Dodge products don't offer a convertible. The Camaro convertible has a power top that operates up to 30 mph, up and down, with a hard tonneau. Mustang convertible isn't even close to that level of functionality.

Where do you track your car..?

 

[millhouse]

If that answer satisfies you then who am I to argue...

So you trust Randy's times, but not his explanation of why times often vary several seconds?

 

[EcoVert]

So you trust Randy's times, but not his explanation of why times often vary several seconds?

Who's paying Randy that might explain why some cars win and some don't. If someone is general Motors Trend then you'll deliver the results your being paid for.

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