GT350 vs. Z/28

[9secondko]

Easy to say some great number when no verification of any sort exists.

Goes for any car.

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[thePill]

There are several people that saw the video of the GT350R's 7:32.19. Of course, this is just another guy saying he saw the video but... he is a Camaro fan...

Am I the only one who saw the video and noticed the time starts at one end of the wall and stops at the beginning of the wall? And it was at easily 5 seconds from one end to the other. I'm really not sure why this is still being discussed this much. Go watch the video. Look at where the clock starts and where it stops. Mystery solved.

No, you are not the only one to see the video.

It was originally on the HP kings site. Apparently they decided to take it down. The video was a view out the front of what appeared to be a new mustang and it did run around the z/28 time if it were timed to and from the same point. But the timer was not started/stopped and the same point.
__________________

What he is referring to is, where the time starts and stops. It is true, NONE of the Ring laps are from the same start/finish. He is not claiming the Ford stopped the stop watch early like Chevy did on the z28. He is just unaware that all laps are done this way.

I know this isn't official and, just as hollow as Al O's 7:31 z28 statement but...

... I have several reports of an additional 7:28 from the GT350 augmenting the 7:32.19.

I also have rumors that the GT350TP is the z28's equal. The GT350R is superior to the z28 in every way.

It appears that Road and Track have laid waste to a 2013 Boss 302 in a '15 GTTP. They said it beat the Boss at every point on the track in every stat... ie, Ave MPH, G's braking ect, ect...

They also state that the GTTP is just as fast if not faster that the 1LE. Car and Driver also placed a GTTP over a 1LE in a head to head.

Road and Track non-officially backs up my claim from above. They also claim he GT350TP is faster than the 2015 z28. They go on to report that the 350R dominates the pork sausage.

Edit: I would just like to say thank you to all the clickies, views and reads. 200,000 Camaro-hating views. Thank You and I hope you continue to find entertainment here and return as often as you can.

 

[MrPoopALot]

Pill, nobody that has tested the GT PP and 1LE the same day has said the GT is faster on a track. As far as I'm aware, the Mustang was 2 HUNDREDTHS of a second faster according to Road and Track test and they weren't tested the same day.. While the Motor Trend test was same day and the GT PP got walked by the 1LE.

I would fully expect the 350R to perform better than the Z/28 and everyone should as well. If it wouldn't, it would be a major failure on Ford's part.

 

[thePill]

Pill, nobody that has tested the GT PP and 1LE the same day has said the GT is faster on a track. As far as I'm aware, the Mustang was 2 HUNDREDTHS of a second faster according to Road and Track test and they weren't tested the same day.. While the Motor Trend test was same day and the GT PP got walked by the 1LE.

I would fully expect the 350R to perform better than the Z/28 and everyone should as well. If it wouldn't, it would be a major failure on Ford's part.

Car and Driver at Motown. To be honest, it was a fully loaded, GTPP Premium too. The win was by only 0.02 seconds.

Not looking good for a competition focused 1LE. The GT is a volume seller and the Peformance Pack, while completely legal in SCCA, just isn't as competition focused.

Not a good thing for Camaro.

Actually, the 1LE was unsuccessful against the previous GT in real life racing. It was one of the only cars in T2 that used a factory driver and Todd still couldn't beat the GT's.

 

[garagelogic]

I would fully expect the 350R to perform better than the Z/28 and everyone should as well. If it wouldn't, it would be a major failure on Ford's part.

Hardly. Even it were not faster, the GT350 and GT350 R are better vehicles than the outgoing Camaro.

 

[9secondko]

Except... It appears they ARE faster. And if the R time is true (and it seems there is reason to believe the time) ... A lot faster.

So that would make them MUCH better vehicles?

And chevy will answer. And Ford will answer back and so on.

Loving this new age of automotive testosterone. Lol

 

[thePill]

Hardly. Even it were not faster, the GT350 and GT350 R are better vehicles than the outgoing Camaro.

Another bone-headed move from Chebby was not offering a competition ready or class compliant z28 to their fans like Ford did. The GT350 and GT350TP were a pleasant surprise. The comp cars are the cheapest... for the people...

The GT350R was only created to make the z28 look bad at everything they just got done bragging about.

 

[9secondko]

A solution for everybody.

 

[thePill]

There sure seems to be more than a few witnesses of the GT350R Ring video. I would sure like to receive a copy of that video... for a price of course...

Email, FB or PM me on any of the accounts please...

 

[thePill]

Major issues with the LS7 in the C6 Z06, many on C5 warning that these will be carried over to the 2014-'15 z28.

Dropping valves and another issue I am reading into now. These engines only last for 15,000 miles? That kinda sucks...

Typically failures start around ~15k miles. So it is going to take some time before we see if this is an issue or not. It takes ~1-2 hours to "wiggle" check the valves so just do that around 10k miles, 5k if you really want. A few 2012-2013 vettes showed severe wear with as little as 5k.

ALL LS7's have the issue...... Im sick of all these "know it alls" on the forum saying they fixed it in 2013+... If you have an LS7 you NEED to get the valves fixed.... Plain and simple... We do 2-3 LS7's a week. I keep 4 sets of ported/fixed LS7 heads in stock i do so many of them.

Hi,

If anybody is considering using a stock LS7 engine for hard out road racing you might want to read this short history of what we as the Premier Tin-Top category here in New Zealand learned about running basically stock LS7 internal component's in the last three years.

Its fair to say that we dived in at the deep end and purchased a crate engine LS7 [after reading about that engine being used in the MT 900R Mosler] as the proposed controlled spec engine for a prototype car road racing car we developed for a new category of 4 door tin-top racing here in New Zealand, known as V8Supertourers, which is modeled on a highly controlled version of the Australian V8 Supercar Series car, in order to save on both build and running cost's but have similar levels of performance.

Under my tenure as the CEO of V8ST, we built 22 V8ST car's, including the prototype V8Supertourer, all with LS7 stock standard crate engines that we purchased through Chuck at Pace Performance Ohio. At last count we had purchased close to 30 complete LS7 engine's, and at least 15 long [Service] engine's.

Our problems with the engines started at the very first race meeting were we had 16 V8ST race cars on the grid [8 with Holden VE2 Body panels, and 8 with Ford Falcon FG Body panels] the problems started with the close drafting nature of such a controlled category we each competitor has the same potential lap time, and with track temperatures around 40ºC a number of cars engines ran hot on both the water and the oil, something we had not experienced at all with the single prototype car that had always run on it own.

I could and probably should right a book on the drama's, engine blow ups etc, and the instant experts who suddenly appeared with how to fix it solutions many of which were adopted and in some cases showed small gains.

I became more and more convinced that the principle problem was that any engine rev's higher than 6,000 rpm that the scavenge g'rotor was incapable of returning the same volume of oil that was being delivered by the pressure side of the standard so called OE dry-sump pump, and as such the volume of oil in the sump was so excessive that the crank and rod's acted like a giant egg-better and beat the oil into a highly aerated super hot froth, which was a recipe for disaster.

In desperation we mandated a maximum RPM of 6,250 and limped along for the first year with out any further blown engines, until I was able to gain sufficient competitor "buy-in" to have Bill Dailey from Dailey Engineering design and build us a 3 stage, integrated Pump and billet pan to fit, without any modification's just in front of the left hand engine mount.

This was an immediate success and bought both the oil and water temperatures into near perfect operating temperatures.

Once we were on top of the temperature and oiling issues, we were able to focus on the occasional catastrophic [rod through the side of the block] engine failures that were were still experiencing. By analyzing the onboard data we finally determined that RED-MIST downshifts possible even with our sequential 6 speed Quaife gearboxes, were responsible for causing a momentary over-rev under braking compression, which literally pulled the wrist pin out of the piston gudgeon boss's.

We were about to bite the bullet and mandate a change to Mahle's off the shelf forged piston, when we discovered quite by chance the GM had secretly introduced a modified hypeautectic piston, that you had to buy along with a slightly modified Ti rod to suit the strengthened piston's. We also discovered again by chance that GM were fitting the new rod and piston, as standard to their so called Service engine [long engine in our terminology] which made a lot more sense to purchase because all the wear parts were new at a reasonable, at least to us cost of US$10,500 less core cost, if you had one which we didn't.

This Service engine solution, though only a bandage in my opinion meant that those competitor's that had not lost an engine, didn't feel forced to tear down their engine in order to fit a forged piston even though we were convince there would be no performance advantage.

Along the way we discovered the reason for almost all the ti-rod's big end galling when the side's touch each other, this lead us to allow controlled Blue printing to deal with the unbelievable bad tolerance GM allow in the build of their engines, which is bordering on Corporate negligence at least in my opinion. We found little-end wrist pin clearances down to 0.0003 and up to 0.001.5 !. As the little-end 'steers' the rod its no wonder the big end's side's get into contact at some point in time given the complex secondary harmonic's that exist in all engines to a lessor or greater extent.

We all so found size for size piston and bore's plus badly tapered bores, such a shame with such a great engine, but nothing that a full on blueprint cant fix.

All of this said I have become a huge fan of the LS engine and am currently building a normally aspirated 800BHP, 8,500 RPM 3.625" short stroke screamer, with a 4.185" bore, using a GEN4 Truck block and MID wet sleeves from Steve at RED in California. As the build goes along I am happy to share it with all the LS engine fan's on this site, so I will start a new thread on the build in the next few week's.

Happy new year to you all from down under,

Mark.

 

[jrease]

Sorry but Evo does not cite any sources and posts it 3 days after the Horse power kings bullshit? A site that has been proven by Ford to make stuff up. I don't buy it.

What eyewitnesses? Where are these people? not a single site reposting this has quoted anyone at Ford, any spy photographer, or any eyewitnesses who caught this mystery run.

 

[mustangletback]

:lol::lol::clap2:well,its like we have seen as lately in the stingray and z06,that the motors and trans,are garbage.they are blowing up all over the place.this site here keeps up with all of the issues with the new vette.PeterMJ's Corvette C7 Stingray and Z06 Exposed

 

[thePill]

Sorry but Evo does not cite any sources and posts it 3 days after the Horse power kings bullshit? A site that has been proven by Ford to make stuff up. I don't buy it.

What eyewitnesses? Where are these people? not a single site reposting this has quoted anyone at Ford, any spy photographer, or any eyewitnesses who caught this mystery run.

I would also like to see the video people say they have seen.

 

[thePill]

Today and only today, we are going to put or beloved GT350R against the World renown Porsche 911 GT3. Yes, the very same 911 GT3 that laid waste to the 2014 Camaro z28 in both Autoweek and Motor Trend's comparisons.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/chevy-camaro-z28-vs-porsche-911-gt3-track-day-shootout

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...let_camaro_z28_vs_porsche_911_gt3_comparison/

Initially, Motor Trend claimed they couldn't acquire a 911 GT3 for the z28's maiden comparison. It's funny because Autoweek had zero difficulty... With ease Autoweek obtained a GT3 for the comparison, although, GM decided that a factory driver would be better suited to drive for that comparison. Driver Andy Pilgrim was the selection...

Needless to say, the z28 was vanquished on both occasions. V-A-N-Q-U-I-S-H-E-D, vanquished, destroyed, made a fool, pooped out and pooped on. Unfortunately, Motor Trend could only wrangle a 911 S Turbo with some standard tires. I was thinking they were All-Season's but I would have to check. Speaking of check, this z28 vs. 911 vs. GT-R comparison was the same magazine article MT needed to check the tire pressure over and over again. Running additional laps after the comparison was over. The 911 initially lapped the track faster than the z28. That is until they let some air out of the tires Brady-style and eventually beat the 911. Hey now, it is only a little air right? No big deal...

That comparison was important though, for me at least. The reason being was simple and, I had mentioned this here a while back. I had heard about the benchmarks and a few of them were hard to swallow. When rumors of the Mustang GT were floating about, the 911/997, DB9 and Vanquish (lol), Stingray Z51 and even the 458 were mentioned. I thought wow... and we will be keeping that quiet right? I would have expected that most benchmarks would have been kept hush hush, not really a new policy but, historically, it has been that way.

However, a few weeks back, right around Detroit, most of our "rumors" had been given legs. On some occasions, some of those "rumors" got wings. Among those initial performance benchmarks, the most serious of competitors continued to be gauged... using not only the MGT but the GT350 as well. Here is what Dave P. had to say about said comparison.

"Why would I choose a Shelby GT350R over a Porsche 911 GT3?" I asked. The answer came without the faintest trace of hesitation - "'Cause it's better!" This is how I started my conversation with Dave Pericak, Ford Mustang Chief Engineer, who's recently been tasked with steering Ford Performance, the Blue Oval's new global go-fast division.

...and so it begins...

This is a big gauntlet, being thrown down bigtime, calling out a manufacturer that uses the Ring to advertise (one of only a few). In fact, Dave is calling out a manufacturers best efforts, in their best offering for the first time. This is called confidence, something I guess the S550 is providing them. There are some things the Mustang is benefitting from this Generation and it appears they are eager to use those benefits... But is this feasible? Can it be done or at least put up a better fight than the z28 did? It was handled... decisively...

So, what do we got? What is Ford bringing? How do they plan on pulling this off? It is a very serious jab and it may go on to be decided at Nurburgring. I don't want it to but it seems the Mustang wants it. Porsche and Nurburgring go together like Dark Beer and Sauerkraut and it will be difficult to compete with them at home. Porsche has been questioned about their Ring methods before via Nissan. I don't want the Mustang to get caught up in a Ring competition with a company that exploits Nurburgring for marketing purposes.

Throwing caution to the wind and placing heaps of faith into the new platform early on is a good sign for me. Don't forget that the 2015 Mustang began life years ago so, they should have a pretty good idea of the cars capabilities. As quick as the question was asked, the answer was present... "Because it's better",

We were sitting inside the track-trained pony on the Detroit floor and the Porsche question just came natural. After all, Dave did say they used the 911 as a benchmark when developing the standard Mustang, so he obviously admitted they took more than one spin in the GT3 while developing the GT350 and the track-happy-but-still-street-legal GT350R.

As it happened during the 2015 Mustang talk we had last year, Dave insisted on the fact that while Ford did use Zuffenhausen's machines as a reference, they are not trying to be like the Germans, or to imitate the Camaro Z28, for instance. The Ford guys played the comparo game in order to know where they were standing. Well, it's a bit early to tell right now, but it looks like they're in a pretty good position.

I had another question that came just as natural and it all had to do with Lucifer's racetrack, but Dave wouldn't comment on whether the Mustang Shelby GT350R would beat the 911 GT3 on the Nurburgring or not.

The man in charge of fast Fords did explain the thing will run significantly faster than the Boss 302 Laguna Seca. While I had to admire his dedication to the company - he owns a Laguna Seca, so he basically trolled his ride there - I can't exactly allow myself to be stunned by the information. Heck, everybody expected that to happen with the new independent rear suspension of the 2015 Mustang.

Still, the Mustang Shelby GT350R and the 911 GT3 are much, much closer to each other than it might seem.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/f...is-better-than-the-porsche-911-gt3-91165.html

Talk is good, definitely better than complete radio silence. But this?!?!

The confidence is well placed according to a few of my own trusted sources. Nothing completely out of touch and out of reach... and very impressive I must say.

First off, we have heard claims of the GT350R's Power to Weight Ratio. According to Ford (Someone inside Ford), the GT350R has approximately the same Power to Weight Ratio as the Porsche 911 GT3. That number is 5.99lbs per Horsepower at the RSR level, about 6.6 @475/3160. . That really doesn't tell us anything other than the PtW... and I can live with that number. Let's do some number crunching and see where this insanity lands.

First, lets bring the Porsche 911 GT3's stats up so we can compare them shall we? At a quick glance, it looks pretty serious. 475hp, 3197lbs which gives it a 6.73 Power to Weight ratio. It sits on a murderous 96.5 inch wheelbase accompanied by a 61/61.2 track fr/rr. Using a rear engine configuration with a track like that gives it a WB/T ratio similar to the 458 @ 1.581/1.576. On a set of 245/35R20's (Blah on the 20's) and 305/30R20's (Blah!!!) the GT3 is a handful on paper already. There are a ton of unknown variables not figured into this bench racing session and I highly doubt any of those variables would help the GT350R even if they were known. Like I said... It's a very large boast but not usually a boast said openly unless they intend on contending.

Still, a 6.7 is a fine naturally aspirated power to weight ratio, especially at the rumored price point. Where does that put the GT350R though? Does it make that 6.7 up on horsepower alone? 3500lbs and 525hp give the GT350R a 6.66. I will warn everyone now that the GT3's curb weight I used was taken from a 3rd party, the 3197lbs isn't the official weight from Porsche, it is more of a real world number.

At 3300lbs, the GT350R could get away with 500hp flat and give it a 6.6 as well. I assume the GT350R's horsepower will not dip below 500 flat because that was already put forth by FoMoCo. So, we know that a sub-3300lbs Mustang is not on the menu. We should not be shocked at that announcement but the numbers are promising.

If we use the GT's 3705lbs (Ignoring the GT350 and GT350TP) and taking the stated 130lbs off the 3705lbs (3575lbs) at 500hp, we get 7.15. Either weight goes down or power comes up... We can get a clearer picture of where the R will land. Worst case? 3575lbs at exactly 500hp giving the R a 7.15 PtW ratio. Which is still not in line with the comment made by Dave P.

The Power to Weight ratio is only one avenue of approach, there are several key disadvantages the GT350R may fall victim to. Remember though, we are talking about a $175,000 dollar 911. The disadvantages will be a-plenty I'm sure. Those being overall weight, weight distribution and roll center to name a few. The basic 911 foot print is wonderful, requiring less tire overall to perform as it does. This is where the Mustang gains it's ammunition, the contact patch within the footprint. the GT350's 295/305's are great, more so because they are completely legal in the SCCA and needs no swapping to compete. On the other foot, the GT350R's 305/315 could present a problem in class competition. On the open track, there are no limitations and the R fits in here.

The first major hurdle the z28 needed to overcome was it's very own birth and DNA. There was never any real weight behind the z28 challenging a 911 GT3 and winning, not with the 5th Gen's geometry. A 112.5 inch wheelbase cannot be taken seriously when comparing said vehicle against a 911, C7 or even a 458. Lets face it fella's, the 5th Gen Camaro has terrible geometry and is just plain old fashion overweight.

I am still hearing all kinds of ramblings about the use of Carbon Ceramic Brakes on the GT350/350TP and GT350R. I know the option is visible in the order guide and I have also noticed it says on the front axle only too. I'm not sure they would only use CCB's on the front, especially with IRS now equipped. What would the savings be like? If any that is... many people gather that the use of Carbon Ceramic Brakes automatically involves a weight loss. Mark Reuss has actually said that CCB's usually see a weight gain, this was during a segment on Leno's Garage during the Nurburgring ZL1 showcase. I can't say for sure that a weight loss is imminent if that option is explored. I know for a fact it will see an MSRP increase and the unique calibration used for the CCB's are difficult to swap out for racing... not mentioning that Carbon Ceramic Brakes are not permitted in competition. I say offer it if they need to... and just between you and I, when it came to the z28... Ford didn't need to...

...on the 911 GT3 (and maybe the RS too), they will need the CCB's... if the GT3 is their intention...

(Continued in next post)

 

[9secondko]

Sorry but Evo does not cite any sources and posts it 3 days after the Horse power kings bullshit? A site that has been proven by Ford to make stuff up. I don't buy it.

What eyewitnesses? Where are these people? not a single site reposting this has quoted anyone at Ford, any spy photographer, or any eyewitnesses who caught this mystery run.

That is suspicious. But evo has a reputation. HK does not.

And when other publications have reported it, they cited evo.

Still could be nothing.

But... I'm inclined to believe it. And usually there is something to these things. Like back when there was some crazy rumor about s 600+ hp Shelby...

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