August 2016 Mustang Sales - 8,299

[crs2879]

Chevy LS line of engines are very impressive but also true that displacement v displacement, the Coyote makes equal or greater power per CI. Basically comes down to personal preference. Yes, a '16 Camaro SS is likely going to win the stoplight race v a GT but you'll spend $4-$5K more for the SS. Also, in my case, I give Ford a lot of credit for not taking a bail-out. GM (now jokingly called "Government Motors" in my circle) is simply not on my shopping list.

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[MRGTX]

Well said on a GM board.

"Everyone that I know (simply put) thinks that the Mustang and the Challenger are just better looking cars.
These aren’t even car enthusiasts! They don’t care about the amazing alpha roots underneath the skin or even have a clue what that means. Chevrolet then ups the price on a vehicle that is known to be decent priced performance. Combine that with the Gen V looks and no one is raving like they did when they first saw the Camaro return. Challenger gets away with the same look (although handsomely/freshly updated) because it’s a timeless design (retro-look)."


Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/08...lipping-sixth-gen-camaro-sales/#ixzz4J1oacBp5

^That sums it up.
Holy crap is it a good car to drive but I didn't care for the aesthetic in Gen 5 and I don't care for it now. I don't know about you guys but I refused to believe that the early spy shot/prototypes we say on the internets weren't just previous body style cars with the new drivetrain, etc. underneath, much the same way that we saw 2014 Mustangs running around with S550 stuff under the skin. But no! These were actual 6th gen body panels...so similar to the same design we had been looking at for 7 years!

Pure and simple, the styling was a miscalculation by GM. They made a great car from a technical stand point but where Ford managed to evolve the look of the Mustang pretty brilliantly, Chevy just had a fat guy sit on the nose of a 5th gen and called it a day.

Driving one is a whole different discussion and you guys loathe any mention of how much better the Camaro drives and goes...but as a complete package, these sales numbers are not surprising.

 

[EcoVert]

Well ...yes to a degree.

The Challenger and Camaro concept both bowed at the 2006 NAIAS in Detroit. They had been worked on since early 2005.

I'd say the retro design kicked it off, but it took fire long before the S197 was a smash successful design.

Have to remember Ford revealed the S197 Mustang in December of 2003 that's plenty of time for gm and Chrysler to get a concept car ready for the 2006 naias. Both new Ford had something and wanted to get in on Mustangs coat tails.

 

[EcoVert]

If they intended for lower overall sales and more profit, why were there 80,000 Camaro's made in 8 months?

Production started last November, they sold around 52,000-54,000 and have 27,000 sitting on lots in 8-9 months? Now there's only room for 10,000-15,000 new 2017's...


...so the 25,000 left overs need to be reduced by 10-20%.


This is year #1 too!!!

Apply the same monthly losses to the 2016 numbers and you get a dry idea of what's going on. Maxing out at 5500 in April/May and sinking down into the 2800-3500 during Winter '17. 36 months from initial production and they might need to scrap the Alpha.

What happens to the Camaro's MSRP if the ATS or CTS is discontinued? Around 30% of the structural cost is shared across the Alpha Program. Sure, 30% of just structure isn't much, but it is a looming increase. There are ATS/CTS parts shared as well. Keep that in mind when toying with Camaro numbers. The ATS/CTS is also in danger and tgat will increase the Camaro's MSRP.

The Camaro is in a corner and it's not a very big one. The Mustang's only real competition within the Camaro lineup is the SS. The advantage only exist if the automatic is optioned and in a 1/4 mile race. The manual SS is just GT performance and a slight acceleration advantage down low. Looks like a GT can handle itself in Roll racing.


It's a small corner and with the SS already $38,000, it's pretty much stuck. If there was demand is say there is room. But no demand... It is a Full Size wheelbase after all and, it was never given the proper reinforcement to become a Full Size V8 coupe. Delaying the A10 won't help sales and pitching your last dollar on a tired media nobody cares about is foolish. MotorTrend busted the z28 that Dyno'd hot and it still lost...


...doesn't that make anyone sad? To see them cheat and still get beat? Last year it angered me. This year I feel pity :( and nobody is buying it.

GM has already stated that the average price of the camaro has raised $ 605 for the 2017 . That aught to help sales.

 

[Big Boss]

The GM fans can say all they want about selling less and earning more per car. the amount of available inventory from what I can see online and at my local dealers that are similar size to Ford dealers tells me they expected this car to sell at least as well as the gen 5. Maybe they did not intend on catching the Mustang in volume, but from what I can see, they expected to at least sell similar to gen 5.

 

[15wile]

Someone else mentioned that cars don't get much lighter anymore without becoming smaller. It's not entirely accurate, for certainly the F150 lost some weight with the extensive use of aluminum. But for the most part, this is correct. There are limits imposed by the dimensions and price brackets of the car that put a limit on how much of a diet it can reasonably go on.

GM had a fat 5th gen Camaro, but they went anorexic with it for this gen, and that compromised its everyday driver utility and its visibility. To be fair, with their choice to make the car smaller, there really wasn't any way around this. And so, in the end, they ended up with a car that IMHO was too close to a Corvette. In some ways, this is good. It performs very well. But in most ways this is not good. GM already had a Corvette, and an ATS-V. The Camaro creeped too close to offerings GM already had, and creeped too far away from the Mustang in price.

Ford, IMHO, found a better sweet spot in terms of price/performance/usability. People forget that this isn't really a sports car. It's a pony car. It's for everyday folks who want something more exciting to drive than an Accord coupe, something that if you invest some sweat and wrench time in, might become a proper a sports car or muscle car, for a bargain price. It's never been about absolute performance. It's been about RELATIVE performance, about how fast and fun it is compared to what else is on the market for a low price.

The pony car is an everyman car, and though most of us here are enthusiasts about it, ant it may hurt a bit to read this... the Mustang is nothing special. There are faster cars, and better looking cars, and more interesting cars, and cheaper cars, and so on. What the Mustang has always done better than the competition (with one or two mistakes on the way), is balance all of those attributes to create a desirable and affordable fun car.

Ford created this market segment, and I think that even today they understand it more deeply and completely than GM. GM has occasional bursts of creative energy, and they'll make a great car, a fast car, whatever... but they've never had the staying power in this market, because they couldn't keep that balance.

 

[EcoVert]

Someone else mentioned that cars don't get much lighter anymore without becoming smaller. It's not entirely accurate, for certainly the F150 lost some weight with the extensive use of aluminum. But for the most part, this is correct. There are limits imposed by the dimensions and price brackets of the car that put a limit on how much of a diet it can reasonably go on.

GM had a fat 5th gen Camaro, but they went anorexic with it for this gen, and that compromised its everyday driver utility and its visibility. To be fair, with their choice to make the car smaller, there really wasn't any way around this. And so, in the end, they ended up with a car that IMHO was too close to a Corvette. In some ways, this is good. It performs very well. But in most ways this is not good. GM already had a Corvette, and an ATS-V. The Camaro creeped too close to offerings GM already had, and creeped too far away from the Mustang in price.

Ford, IMHO, found a better sweet spot in terms of price/performance/usability. People forget that this isn't really a sports car. It's a pony car. It's for everyday folks who want something more exciting to drive than an Accord coupe, something that if you invest some sweat and wrench time in, might become a proper a sports car or muscle car, for a bargain price. It's never been about absolute performance. It's been about RELATIVE performance, about how fast and fun it is compared to what else is on the market for a low price.

The pony car is an everyman car, and though most of us here are enthusiasts about it, ant it may hurt a bit to read this... the Mustang is nothing special. There are faster cars, and better looking cars, and more interesting cars, and cheaper cars, and so on. What the Mustang has always done better than the competition (with one or two mistakes on the way), is balance all of those attributes to create a desirable and affordable fun car.

Ford created this market segment, and I think that even today they understand it more deeply and completely than GM. GM has occasional bursts of creative energy, and they'll make a great car, a fast car, whatever... but they've never had the staying power in this market, because they couldn't keep that balance.

Spot on. The Mustang has most always never had the most horse power has never always had the best chassis, has never always been the fastest. But has always been affordable mod friendly and a huge aftermarket to make the car you. :ford:
GM has always seen a trend Ford has started and followed suit to get in on the money. There are to many examples to list but here are a few, Ranchero- el camino . Mustang- camaro, Explore Sport Track- avalanche.
Monkey see monkey do

 

[crs2879]

FRPP/Roush Stage 1 blower does not void factory warranty. Roush also offers a 3/36K Add-On warranty for the entire drivetrain for $995. My car put 587HP to the wheels with blower and FRPP X-Pipe. I realize people love big HP numbers but the potential of the car with 587 is barely usable on the street......however, it is a night and day transformation compared to the stock 435.

 

[MadCow]

People fail to understand that the Coyote was the result of nearly 2 decades of Research and Development. The reason Ford has a world class DOHC today is due to all that was learned since 1990 with OHC engines.

GM has very little knowledge on production OHC engines... Ford elected to design a V8 for V8 people. The embarrassment today extends to GM's usage of OHV tech and cannot match the output of an OHC engine, liter for liter.

GM cannot match the Voodoo... which the 4.6 is the great grand daddy of. Even a 7 liter engine cannot match the output.

You can go back a few more decades. The little known Ford GAA motor was designed for aircraft and ended up powering tanks back in the early 1940s. 1100CI, V8, all aluminum, 32V, DOHC, hemispherical headed goodness. It actually looks a bit like a gigantic modular motor.

But I understand what you are saying about the 4.6 being the beginning of Fords real commitment to OHC for practical uses.

 

[1320']

I personally dislike forced induction cars...I'm a bit too old school for that.

So for me..something like the Power packs..which all told can raise the power up to (estimated) 465 HP and 415 TQ..I'm all about that..as it is the stock suspension and tires on a base GT can barely contain the stock 435/400.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

...

Ford, IMHO, found a better sweet spot in terms of price/performance/usability. People forget that this isn't really a sports car. It's a pony car. It's for everyday folks who want something more exciting to drive than an Accord coupe, something that if you invest some sweat and wrench time in, might become a proper a sports car or muscle car, for a bargain price. It's never been about absolute performance. It's been about RELATIVE performance, about how fast and fun it is compared to what else is on the market for a low price.
...

I agree that the Pony Car is a sweet spot that Ford understands best.
Dodge/Plymouth and Chevy/Pontiac had the better large Muscle Cars and they cornered themselves with big OHV motors for those cars.

Dodge seems to know the Challenger is not a Pony Car and they have been willing to stick to their modern Muscle Car formula of good utility, big power, moderate handling, and bigger price. Where will they go next? A lighter Muscle Car? An affordable Pony Car? An impractical Sports Car?

For 6G, Chevy doesn't seem to know what it wants the Camaro to be. They seem to want to define it as a Muscle Car, with the size and performance of a Sports Car.

Meanwhile they lost track of what seems to define a Pony Car: Practical (can fit 4 and a load of groceries), Stylish (looks like a classy sports car), Affordable (starts at an everyman's price), Personal (can be optioned up to your taste/price), and Customizable (easily modified for track, strip, or show).

The Camaro seems to be in a checkmate situation surrounded by the Corvette Sports Car, the Challenger Muscle Car, the Mustang Pony Car, and whatever else GM sticks an LTx engine in. Their heritage is one of playing follow the leader while getting styling all wrong.

Only a clean sheet and a clear new direction will save the Camaro.

 

[Rough Hollow Man]

^^^Dude knows the car scene, I'd say...you're spot on JohnZiraldo.

 

[thePill]

There is yet another MSRP increase planned for MY18. That will damage sales again... Offer incentives on the '16's and increase the price of the new ones to offset losses. There surely is no improvement from 2016 to '18.

Now they offer a 1Le and claim it's faster than a better equipped z28 :lol:. Honestly... who is in charge here? Now they claim a 1Le is faster than a C7 Z51, z28, ATS-V and M4 GTS :lol:


How about no... not without some tire treatment. They play their fanbase like fools...

 

[MRGTX]

I agree that the Pony Car is a sweet spot that Ford understands best.
Dodge/Plymouth and Chevy/Pontiac had the better large Muscle Cars and they cornered themselves with big OHV motors for those cars.

Dodge seems to know the Challenger is not a Pony Car and they have been willing to stick to their modern Muscle Car formula of good utility, big power, moderate handling, and bigger price. Where will they go next? A lighter Muscle Car? An affordable Pony Car? An impractical Sports Car?

For 6G, Chevy doesn't seem to know what it wants the Camaro to be. They seem to want to define it as a Muscle Car, with the size and performance of a Sports Car.

Meanwhile they lost track of what seems to define a Pony Car: Practical (can fit 4 and a load of groceries), Stylish (looks like a classy sports car), Affordable (starts at an everyman's price), Personal (can be optioned up to your taste/price), and Customizable (easily modified for track, strip, or show).

The Camaro seems to be in a checkmate situation surrounded by the Corvette Sports Car, the Challenger Muscle Car, the Mustang Pony Car, and whatever else GM sticks an LTx engine in. Their heritage is one of playing follow the leader while getting styling all wrong.

Only a clean sheet and a clear new direction will save the Camaro.

A little dramatic...but I think you mostly got this right.

 

[thePill]

I agree that the Pony Car is a sweet spot that Ford understands best.
Dodge/Plymouth and Chevy/Pontiac had the better large Muscle Cars and they cornered themselves with big OHV motors for those cars.

Dodge seems to know the Challenger is not a Pony Car and they have been willing to stick to their modern Muscle Car formula of good utility, big power, moderate handling, and bigger price. Where will they go next? A lighter Muscle Car? An affordable Pony Car? An impractical Sports Car?

For 6G, Chevy doesn't seem to know what it wants the Camaro to be. They seem to want to define it as a Muscle Car, with the size and performance of a Sports Car.

Meanwhile they lost track of what seems to define a Pony Car: Practical (can fit 4 and a load of groceries), Stylish (looks like a classy sports car), Affordable (starts at an everyman's price), Personal (can be optioned up to your taste/price), and Customizable (easily modified for track, strip, or show).

The Camaro seems to be in a checkmate situation surrounded by the Corvette Sports Car, the Challenger Muscle Car, the Mustang Pony Car, and whatever else GM sticks an LTx engine in. Their heritage is one of playing follow the leader while getting styling all wrong.

Only a clean sheet and a clear new direction will save the Camaro.

Chevy was out engineered, plain and simple. Initial greed and playing catch up pushed the MSRP too high to start. It has given the Mustang a lot of room for future upgrades...

...the Camaro is literally trapped between the C7 and a very affordable GT. If the 1SS or 2SS was enough to keep a GT at bay, a 1Le wouldn't be needed. Besides... you can option a 1SS to 1Le levels anyway.

None of that matters though... the lots are filled with 2SS's.

An R package GT ($39,995) is all that's needed to destroy the camaro lineup entirely. Not much else they can do about it...

Maximum structural lightweighting, Maximum output advantage and some extensive suspension work and yet... nothing... still can't shake a GT.


The camaro won't last much longer, not with current falling trends.

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