2017 CHEVROLET CAMARO ZL1 VS. 2017 FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT350R: THE FOREVER WAR

[Caballus]

Well that is odd that you would think that because the post I made which you replied that I have "very little track experience" was obviously talking about the drag strip. And I have several times stated on here that I don't do road courses and have no interest in them. And it is an open invitation. It isn't a challenge or a anything negative. If you're ever out in NJ, swing out to the track and hang out. Just because we disagree on a lot of different things doesn't mean we have to always be complete douches to each other. The offer stands.





Ok sounds good to me. Although I have no interest in road course. But if I ever am out there for whatever reason, sure I'll go to that track just to say I did it. So I guess you can say I'll take you up on that offer one day. Thanks. And I'll extend my offer to you if you're ever in NJ. Swing out to the track. It would be cool to see a Shelby out there.

If I'm in Jersey my car won't be with me, so you'll have an opportunity to have a passenger seat view in your own car...be careful what you ask for...

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[Zitrosounds]

What a beast. I wouldn't trade my "normal" ZL1 for one, but damn, on paper it is impressive!

Its damm near a race car!!!:eyebulge::first:

 

[H6G]

What a beast. I wouldn't trade my "normal" ZL1 for one, but damn, on paper it is impressive!

Because..... you don't care for manual shift?

 

[Hack]

Yea GM copied Toyota when they designed the Camaro :shrug: ...come on, that statement is clearly nothing more than a diss. And I didn't say anything about trolling or lying, I said bias which is obviously the case. But I won't try to push the point. I mean, some guys on Camaro forums have absolutely zero respect for the Shelby. So I don't really expect too many Mustang guys to have any respect for the Camaro. So sure then, the ZL1 is "ugly" and "looks like a Camry".

I have shopped for Camaros and if GM builds one that I feel is a better deal than what Ford is offering I will buy one. I drove a few Camaros when the magazines were all talking up the 1LE. I loved the active exhaust on that car, but there were too many other things I didn't like. The engine was dead, sight lines poor, the shifter was very cheap feeling, ugly interior (those are just some high lights).

I was very disappointed when I saw the styling for the new Camaro. I was anxiously awaiting the reveal and hoping it would be really great.

You may not agree, but to me the Camaro looks too much like the Camry/Corolla. And to me it's blatantly obvious. If I had been in charge of the Camaro's release I would have moved heaven and earth to change the front of the car once I saw the Camry and Corolla styling.

But obviously the same design team thought the rear was a good design, so.. :frusty:

Well, I recall some folks being upset when it was said that the Mustang looks just like a Fusion from the front, which is much more on base than you saying the ZL1 looks like a Camry. And I personally think the s550 rear is terrible. It's too sloped for my tastes. I know an absolute diehard Mustang fan that has the same opinion. The R makes up for that with the wing and that's what saves the look on that car for me. My point is when either side enters the discussion with an opinion on looks when we're clearly focused on performance, it just looks like you're dissing, and really will do nothing but derail the conversation. We can all make points back and forth about one design may be better, so what's the point?

I agree the Mustang looks a lot like a Fusion. Both good looking.

You and your friend have odd taste in not liking the Mustang rear styling. Most people love it.

At least it isn't so bland as to be nearly unrecognizable. I can tell a Mustang from probably 1/2 mile away behind it. Camaro tail lights look like any other car. Nothing special.

 

[AirBusPilot]

Well, yeah, I guess there is a resemblance. Huge mouth, head lights..

 

[4V Mayhem]

If I'm in Jersey my car won't be with me, so you'll have an opportunity to have a passenger seat view in your own car...be careful what you ask for...

Yea keep smokin whatever youre smokin pal. No way in hell it'll go down like that but you're entitled to your own hopes and dreams however improbable and impossible they may be. But I'll accept your declination.

 

[mdmoore23]

Because..... you don't care for manual shift?

Since I'm not a track rat, it's not worth the compromises. The ride quality would probably get irritating quick on the street. Now, if I could afford multiple toys, I would add it to my garage in a heartbeat. I'd add an R too, for that matter. Manual definitely has nothing to do with it. All of my previous cars were manual, besides my Hellcat. They were 03 Cobra, 08 Z06, 13 GT500, and 14 Stingray Z51. I'm definitely a fan of manuals. I don't think the manual is the best for the Hellcat though. With the ZL1, I simply wanted to try out the 10 speed and see if what the fuss was about.

 

[mdmoore23]

I have shopped for Camaros and if GM builds one that I feel is a better deal than what Ford is offering I will buy one. I drove a few Camaros when the magazines were all talking up the 1LE. I loved the active exhaust on that car, but there were too many other things I didn't like. The engine was dead, sight lines poor, the shifter was very cheap feeling, ugly interior (those are just some high lights).

I was very disappointed when I saw the styling for the new Camaro. I was anxiously awaiting the reveal and hoping it would be really great.

You may not agree, but to me the Camaro looks too much like the Camry/Corolla. And to me it's blatantly obvious. If I had been in charge of the Camaro's release I would have moved heaven and earth to change the front of the car once I saw the Camry and Corolla styling.

But obviously the same design team thought the rear was a good design, so.. :frusty:



I agree the Mustang looks a lot like a Fusion. Both good looking.

You and your friend have odd taste in not liking the Mustang rear styling. Most people love it.

At least it isn't so bland as to be nearly unrecognizable. I can tell a Mustang from probably 1/2 mile away behind it. Camaro tail lights look like any other car. Nothing special.

I will agree with one thing. I absolutely hate the stock Camaro tail lights, and that's what negatively impacts the rear to me. Luckily GM has some smoked clear ones available from the 1LE. I bought them the first week I had the car. They improve the rear a lot in my opinion. They add depth to the bland look of the Red ones.

 

[Kurac]

^I wouldn't say it looks bad, but it doesn't look great either.

The back end of the R however is just sexy.

 

[Hack]

I will agree with one thing. I absolutely hate the stock Camaro tail lights, and that's what negatively impacts the rear to me. Luckily GM has some smoked clear ones available from the 1LE. I bought them the first week I had the car. They improve the rear a lot in my opinion. They add depth to the bland look of the Red ones.

I agree those look better than the factory tail lights.

 

[ATX]

Looks like the video is up for free now

[ame]

 

[f e r]

Looks like the video is up for free now

Nice find, thanks!

 

[Norm Peterson]

That the lap time difference was what it was came down to agility vs muscle. RP specifically noted that the GT350 was more agile, more of a sports car and the ZL1 more of a muscle car. Slightly different approaches netting essentially the same result. You could skip everything before 18:40, watch only the next minute and a half, and maybe have a little better idea why MT's decision went the way it did.

Separately, the GT350's springing is supposedly about as stiff as some of the GT's firmer "lowering springs". Assuming at least decent damping, I'm not surprised that mechanical grip didn't appear to be compromised.


Norm

 

[thackl]

Both amazing for the money

 

[FogcitySF]

Having seen the video finally that it is free, validates much of what others/I have said before:

1) Camaro in the straights kills it (8-10 mph faster), and it should given has ~6:1 weight to power ratio vs Shelby ~7:1 and 125 bhp advantage.
2) On track, Camaro noticeably inferior in turns (2-3 mph slower) and braking and is where G350R closes large straight line speed gap. Camaro underperforms its 6:1 weight to power ratio (Randy pretty much implied this when he says he expected a > 1.5 sec lap time based on low end tq/power).
3) The visual video further reinforces the data in the magazine article showing R’s superior braking, agility and dynamics. Figure 8 bench racing (23.2 vs 23.1 vs 23.0 says very little about how car behaves in abrupt, undulating transitions, off camber and increasing and decreasing radius turns. Randy drives the GT350R much smoother as you can see how the corners are smooth (less wheel correction) and there is far less throttle-stabbing to get the R to turn. Even advanced amateur drivers can rarely man-handle at this level to make up for chassis deficiencies.
4) The times on the cars are very close, even though GT350R is at 2000 ft elevation (worth about 15 bhp) whereas supercharger can make up for elevation loss by increasing PSI, not to mention 91 oct gas for normally aspirated. Sea level may actually have a different outcome.
5) Camaro will probably be faster car for beginner on the track, as anyone can mash a pedal in the straights (put will probably have to keep TC on for the turns). Intermediate/Advanced amateur GT350R probably faster track car MT vs MT (as others mentioned, have seen this a lot with guys with M3s taking off superchargers as their lap times were slower). In pro-hands, Camaro probably faster car on most tracks. In tracks requiring agility with esses, tight turns, and autocross like characteristics (e.g. Sonoma raceway), can see the R win.
6) ZL1-1LE will definitely be a faster track car (in theory on this type of track at this elevation about 3-4 secs faster than the GT350R). Inevitably, more magazine comparisons will be made with the R. Predict the R will continue to win most of the comparos vs 1LE (and other comparos), but won’t be due to track time, but the overall experience, dynamics, handling, balance. Many experienced driver/owner comparisons with the R have been made vs the 911 GT3, considered the best track car south of 200k (still slower than Viper, but Viper is a brute force monster), and having driven both, for me and others I know it’s a very tough call to make. The market pretty much tells you which car has consensus desirability and that despite production increases, R’s command a vast premium. Knowing others who bought the R have had (and have) faster (and more expensive) cars to choose from. Those who are more budget minded, the 1LE is undeniably, a fantastic value. Would be a tough choice with 1LE vs Corvette GS w/ suspension package for the track. For the street, the regular ZL1 is an incredible value and all things mentioned about agility, throttle, balance, etc won’t matter to those ppl. Not worth springing for 1LE packing for mostly street use.
7) The GT350 offers a completely unique, un-replicated experience: A high-revving N/A engine comparable to likes of Ferrari, Porsche, BMW Motorsport division (when engines tied to F1 program in 2000s), largest production FPC N/A engine, European-style handling agility and driving characteristics, and American muscle car speed and brashness.
8) Which ever car suits your fancy: America is back, and this time it’s personal!

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