1 in 5 EV owners go back to gas. For this reason.

[bluebeastsrt]

Who didn’t see this coming? It takes 3 minutes to fill up your gas tank. That full tank will net you about 300 miles. Charging an EV? Well let’s just say. That’s still a problem unless you have a Tesla and a 480vac outlet in the mansion.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-5-electric-vehicle-owners-164149467.html

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[ice445]

Okay, but what happens when all the cheap oil for gas is gone? It's not super surprising that a mature product (gas engine) with its mature support structure is currently more convenient.

However, the free ride coming to an end is inevitable. I'm not saying electric is THE solution, but it won't be gas either. Technology won't save us either, we're using more and more total energy each year as developing nations try to catch up to western standards of living. Synthetic fuels won't cut it with such high year over year increases in demand, coupled with a declining output year over year from dwindling fossil fuel supplies as it becomes more and more energetically expensive to extract a barrel of oil.

I think electric could make a lot of sense if we can develop a reasonable capacity battery that doesn't require any uncommon minerals in its manufacturing process, or a revolution in recycling current battery technology. Since it's over 80% efficiency at converting to kinetic energy, it's superior to gas other than in btu per lb.

So yeah. Dismissing electric is fun for the moment, but we have some serious challenges ahead of us as a civilization if we want to keep our shiny toys and lifestyles. The more potential alternatives, the better.

 

[LxMike]

Yeah there working on extending the range but they're forgetting you have to refill it at some point.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Okay, but what happens when all the cheap oil for gas is gone? It's not super surprising that a mature product (gas engine) with its mature support structure is currently more convenient.

However, the free ride coming to an end is inevitable. I'm not saying electric is THE solution, but it won't be gas either. Technology won't save us either, we're using more and more total energy each year as developing nations try to catch up to western standards of living. Synthetic fuels won't cut it with such high year over year increases in demand, coupled with a declining output year over year from dwindling fossil fuel supplies as it becomes more and more energetically expensive to extract a barrel of oil.

I think electric could make a lot of sense if we can develop a reasonable capacity battery that doesn't require any uncommon minerals in its manufacturing process, or a revolution in recycling current battery technology. Since it's over 80% efficiency at converting to kinetic energy, it's superior to gas other than in btu per lb.

So yeah. Dismissing electric is fun for the moment, but we have some serious challenges ahead of us as a civilization if we want to keep our shiny toys and lifestyles. The more potential alternatives, the better.

I work in the oil industry. It would probably surprise you that I’m not against EVs. What I’m against is this irrational idea that we will be completely carbon neutral by 2045. The technology is far from there. We can’t even get a road paved in this country. But We’re supposed to completely change the fueling infrastructure In the next 10 years? There is enough oiI to last at least 50-60 years.

 

[ice445]

I work in the oil industry. It would probably surprise you that I’m not against EVs. What I’m against is this irrational idea that we will be completely carbon neutral by 2045. The technology is far from there. We can’t even get a road paved in this country. But We’re supposed to completely change the fueling infrastructure In the next 10 years? is enough oiI to last at least 50-60 years.

I actually completely agree with you, we just aren't there yet to actually replace oil. My point was simply that the sooner we wean off the oil dependence, the better. And not because of any climate emergency nonsense, just the reality of finite resources and the challenges of extraction as the easy stuff starts to run out. I think modern EV's are quite good IF you can live with the convenience issues, charging locations being one of them. I don't think they're the savior of humanity, I just think they are a solid alternative. Now when we get into the governments forcing a complete switch? That's where I'm no longer on board, lol.

 

[Bikeman315]

Who didn’t see this coming? It takes 3 minutes to fill up your gas tank. That full tank will net you about 300 miles. Charging an EV? Well let’s just say. That’s still a problem unless you have a Tesla and a 480vac outlet in the mansion.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-5-electric-vehicle-owners-164149467.html

I’m guessing one in five didn’t think about their car usage throughly before jumping on the “electric” bandwagon. I think this is more about the buyers not doing their homework and then realizing that an electric car sounded better than it was, for them.

California is a big state with a lot of highways and a lot of traffic. It also has the largest number of electric cars and the largest charging infrastructure. Other states need to learn from Cali’s issues.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Aside from that.....

In the last 2 days there have been National News reports that both California and Texas have told their residents to cut back or stop using their HOME A/C because it is creating such a draw on their electrical grids....

LMFAO

So yea, tell me and the others how going full EV is going to be better than ICE - when there's States that can't even handle folks using standard appliances at their homes - let alone needing to charge up to drive somewhere...

Got some brilliant minds out there...

 

[Rapid Red]

Who didn’t see this coming? It takes 3 minutes to fill up your gas tank. That full tank will net you about 300 miles. Charging an EV? Well let’s just say. That’s still a problem unless you have a Tesla and a 480vac outlet in the mansion.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-5-electric-vehicle-owners-164149467.html

Yes & no kidding, it's laughable, hauling that plug around looks like a dream come true. Before & after a work everyday. It's 3x the size of the ones on my welding machines.

I predict the lazy boys will be hating on that soon. The commercials are brainwashing the lemmings with some real bullshit.

But I digress, will never own one, it is good entertainment.

 

[Jason304]

I’ve always found it funny when I pull in with one of my gas guzzlers and fuel up in a few minutes, while EV drivers are waiting. I’ve seen the look of frustration on a few faces.

 

[ctandc72]

Okay, but what happens when all the cheap oil for gas is gone? It's not super surprising that a mature product (gas engine) with its mature support structure is currently more convenient.

However, the free ride coming to an end is inevitable. I'm not saying electric is THE solution, but it won't be gas either. Technology won't save us either, we're using more and more total energy each year as developing nations try to catch up to western standards of living. Synthetic fuels won't cut it with such high year over year increases in demand, coupled with a declining output year over year from dwindling fossil fuel supplies as it becomes more and more energetically expensive to extract a barrel of oil.

I think electric could make a lot of sense if we can develop a reasonable capacity battery that doesn't require any uncommon minerals in its manufacturing process, or a revolution in recycling current battery technology. Since it's over 80% efficiency at converting to kinetic energy, it's superior to gas other than in btu per lb.

So yeah. Dismissing electric is fun for the moment, but we have some serious challenges ahead of us as a civilization if we want to keep our shiny toys and lifestyles. The more potential alternatives, the better.

We have more oil reserves in this country than most people realize. Technology keeps advancing for not only detecting oil reserves but also finding ways to get at those oil reserves (that not too many years ago would have cost too much versus the price of oil).

What I find ironic is when most people talk about oil, they seem to assume that the majority of crude oil is used for gasoline. It isn't. Kerosene, fuel oil (heating), jet fuel, plastic production etc.........

Oil use in the world isn't going ANYWHERE For quite a while.

Estimates in 2016 or so put the untapped oil reserves of the United States at 260+ Billion barrels. In 2020 we used roughly 18 Million barrels. Do the math.

 

[Rapid Red]

We have more oil reserves in this country than most people realize. Technology keeps advancing for not only detecting oil reserves but also finding ways to get at those oil reserves (that not too many years ago would have cost too much versus the price of oil).

What I find ironic is when most people talk about oil, they seem to assume that the majority of crude oil is used for gasoline. It isn't. Kerosene, fuel oil (heating), jet fuel, plastic production etc.........

Oil use in the world isn't going ANYWHERE For quite a while.

Estimates in 2016 or so put the untapped oil reserves of the United States at 260+ Billion barrels. In 2020 we used roughly 18 Million barrels. Do the math.

Absolutely, they have no clue how it impacts everything in their lives, & can't fix stupid either .

 

[ice445]

We have more oil reserves in this country than most people realize. Technology keeps advancing for not only detecting oil reserves but also finding ways to get at those oil reserves (that not too many years ago would have cost too much versus the price of oil).

What I find ironic is when most people talk about oil, they seem to assume that the majority of crude oil is used for gasoline. It isn't. Kerosene, fuel oil (heating), jet fuel, plastic production etc.........

Oil use in the world isn't going ANYWHERE For quite a while.

Estimates in 2016 or so put the untapped oil reserves of the United States at 260+ Billion barrels. In 2020 we used roughly 18 Million barrels. Do the math.

I know the math. To clarify, we used 18 million barrels A DAY in 2020, not total. And I'm well aware of what other uses oil is a component of. You're making a LOT of baseless assumptions. For starters, the world is using 35 billion barrels of oil per year. And that's not a static figure, that's continually increasing as other nations develop. Energy demands are always increasing because growth is a constant factor and expectation. And on top of that, all of the other products oil is a component of are also pretty much always experiencing greater demand, year after year.

The argument of "we have a lot of oil and technology will help us get more" falls flat for one major reason. Thermodynamics. It costs energy to produce energy, this is an inescapable fact. From extraction to coming out of the gas pump, there are energy costs all along the logistic chain. And this is where running out of "cheap" oil becomes extremely damaging. Cheap oil isn't just cheap because it's abundant, it's also cheap in that it doesn't cost much energy to produce compared to the gains from applying it to the market. Have you looked at how much more energy intensive things like tar sands and fracking are compared to conventional sweet crude wells? Traditional oil would produce something like 20+ units of energy for each unit used to create it. The "alternative methods" that technology made cheaper are much less efficient from a raw energy generation perspective. Like, less than 5:1. Thus it takes even more of that oil to meet current demands, let alone future ones, compounding the problem.

On top of this, a lot of technological advances have been predicated on the easy access to cheap energy, especially LOGISTICAL energy. Oil is incredibly useful because it stores an immense amount of BTU's compared to the volume and mass cost. When the easy oil runs out, the harder oil, even with the advances in technology, are still now more difficult to access because the operating costs skyrocket, or you need to siphon even more of your haul for each barrel you deliver to the economy, further reducing the net energy gain. To reiterate, 500 gallons of today's oil will go much further than 500 gallons in 50 years will, and there's nothing technology can do about this, barring some revolutionary electricity source that's immensely abundant (i.e, fusion).

This argument goes far beyond just economics of supply and demand, thermodynamics doesn't care about how much you want to pay for something. There's no energy loan from nature. Oil and coal are basically a solar battery that charged over millions of years, and once we use it up we are officially in the hole with no way to regenerate it. This is a mathematical argument, not an emotional one. I couldn't care less about the politics of it, its just actual reality. A finite resource is just that, finite. Obviously if I were that bothered, I wouldn't be driving a V8 Mustang, lmao. But playing pretend and hoping that technology will just figure it out is wishful thinking, honestly. Even from a pragmatic perspective, the less oil we waste on transportation, the more we have available later for cheap manufacture of other things we need, like plastics. There's no free lunch, so we might as well apply a discount to the one we really can't live without and get some alternatives in play where we can.

 

[Deleted member 35644]

Folks just aren't taking the time to find out ahead of time if an electric car fits their lives. They're just buying them, dreaming of never having to put another tank of gas on their credit cards.

If all you need it for is to commute to work, and it can sit in the garage every night and do a leisurely charge from 95% to 100%, it fits. If your job is to drive around all day, or you like to take road trips, EV may not be for you. Some people just like to learn the hard way, rather than doing a little research.

I could easily fit one into my life, if I could keep one of my gassers on the sideline.

 

[ctandc72]

I know the math. And I'm well aware of what other uses oil is a component of. You're making a LOT of baseless assumptions...

Sorry for the snip - but tell me what "baseless assumptions" I made? Everything I posted is fact. YOU may know that is oil is used for MUCH more than gas - but you think everyone does? You think everyone knows that gasoline was initially just a by product of refining oil into kerosene?

And I posted the U.S. untapped reserves. How does world-wide oil use effect that?

Until battery technology makes HUGE leaps in regards to useful life, storage capacity and using FINITE rare earth minerals (which exist in FAR LESS quantities than oil) PLUS electrical power infrastructure upgrades - EV vehicles will not replace ICE vehicle for the majority of drivers / commuters. That's all fact.

I'm not against EVs or technological advances. Just stating reality.

 

[ice445]

Sorry for the snip - but tell me what "baseless assumptions" I made? Everything I posted is fact. YOU may know that is oil is used for MUCH more than gas - but you think everyone does? You think everyone knows that gasoline was initially just a by product of refining oil into kerosene?

And I posted the U.S. untapped reserves. How does world-wide oil use effect that?

Until battery technology makes HUGE leaps in regards to useful life, storage capacity and using FINITE rare earth minerals (which exist in FAR LESS quantities than oil) PLUS electrical power infrastructure upgrades - EV vehicles will not replace ICE vehicle for the majority of drivers / commuters. That's all fact.

I'm not against EVs or technological advances. Just stating reality.

Sorry, for some reason I took that statement as directed at me, not as a general statement.

And I never disagreed with the bolded part, I even mentioned in my original post that electric vehicles have potential if they stop using so many difficult to mine components. I just suggested that they are workable in their current state, as a niche alternative making up 5-10% of the transportation pool. It's a start is all.

But as far as untapped reserves, a lot of those are fracking reserves so they're low grade, which is why they're the first to be shut off when oil prices drop. Permian basin and Alaskan supplies are pretty good quality though, but if we were tapping them 24/7 for all our needs, we would run out in a disappointingly short time. I mentioned world usage because we're all competing for those "easy" oil supplies, like the Saudi stock. Without the "easy" supplies propping up the more difficult ones, the whole equation gets ugly, and fast. I'm not arguing with you on the premise that oil will be around for a long time, because it absolutely will. It will be around forever, IF we are smart about how we use it. Currently we are absolutely blowing through our supplies like a toddler with a pile of candy.

To get back on topic, electric only makes sense for those who have a proper charging setup at home and a commute that isn't too long so that they can also get some errands done without having to charge before getting home. BUT, it has gotten a lot better. Charging speeds are improving rapidly, and a lot of the cars can get to 80% charge in just 15-20 minutes or so which is good for 150-200 miles. So the convenience gap is getting better. If we can just get some better batteries (from a mineral and recycling standpoint), it will be a very viable competitor over the long term.

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