MY 19 GT350 vs any GT350R?

[pilotgore]

I have a degree in aeronautics. It is my specialty. Once again you dabble in things you pretend to know about Fred. You are wrong again, pure and simple.

Lift is lift Fred, no matter which way you point it. The GT350R, just like the GT500CFTP has a wing.

Here’s a picture of a spoiler vs an automotive wing as it relates to airflow. The top picture is a spoiler, where you can see the airflow being spoiled behind the car, creating drag. The bottom picture depicts a wing. You can notice the airflow seems much smoother which in turns means less drag. Air is deflected up which creates downward lift. Most automotive wings operates much more like a fighter jet wing than that of other airplanes whereas the majority of lift is created from deflecting air, not the presence of camber.

I got a good chuckle out of “I have a degree in aeronautics, it is my specialty.” As if a degree obtained for flying airplanes makes you an expert in aerodynamics (which I’m sure someone in this forum probably is.)

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[Tomster]

Here’s a picture of a spoiler vs an automotive wing as it relates to airflow. The top picture is a spoiler, where you can see the airflow being spoiled behind the car, creating drag. The bottom picture depicts a wing. You can notice the airflow seems much smoother which in turns means less drag. Air is deflected up which creates downward lift. Most automotive wings operates much more like a fighter jet wing than that of other airplanes whereas the majority of lift is created from deflecting air, not the presence of camber.

I got a good chuckle out of “I have a degree in aeronautics, it is my specialty.” As if a degree obtained for flying airplanes makes you an expert in aerodynamics (which I’m sure someone in this forum probably is.)

And I got a chuckle out of your description of lift and how it is produced. My degree included many courses in applied advanced aerodynamics. What is your degree in and where did you get it? Are you a professional pilot? I'm asking so that I can relate to your experience. I see your user name is pilotgore.

I was a military pilot for 12 years. I flew upside down. I know what that means. I have been flying professionally for over 30 years.

Lets not muddy the waters here, A wing produces lift (in any direction) and a spoiler defeats lift.

Lift is not produced solely by deflecting air. Lift is produced because air moves faster over one surface vs the opposite side. So, yes, camber does influence how lift is generated. bernoulli's principle describes lift as the faster the speed of a fluid (air) moves over a surface, the less sideways force is exerted on that surface. Camber is one of the ways you get air to go faster over a surface compared to the opposite side of the wing. Camber, angle of attack, air density, and wing surface area are all factors in lift and the lift equation. You should know all this.

The GT350R has an upper and lower wing surface. Air flows faster over one of the wing as opposed to the other. Due to the camber, and the airflow, the wing produces lift in the downward direction. The angle of incidence is fixed, unlike the GT500CFTP (or the GT4) wing which has multiple settings for varying conditions. I can change the angle of incidence, which also changes the amount of (downward) lift by removing 2 screws and adjusting the angle.

So yes, the GT350R has a wing.

 

[526 HRSE]

I would not buy a 16R over a 2017-2020 base if it's $20k extra.

 

[dpAtlanta]

not to bicker, but a spoiler spoils lift (inhibits natural body lift from speed) and a wing produces lift (positive downward force to aid in positive traction). A GT350R produces lift in the downward direction due to the camber, angle of attack, and airflow.

This is incorrect...

When addressing aircraft, the wings produce lift.

When addressing cars, rear wings, mounted inversely to that of planes, produce downforce.

Lift is implied positive, and is more so reserved for aircraft, whereas downforce, implied negative, is associated to automobiles.

An aircraft’s wing produces positive lift, whereas a car’s wing produces negative downforce.

You are actually both correct. I had to go pull out the old engineering textbooks, as opposed to Google.
Engineering calculations regarding lift utilize positive and negative lift if it is a vector quantity; vector quantity having both magnitude and direction. If you are simply describing the direction of the vector, you can use lift or downforce. Engineering calculations in the textbooks use positive & negative lift, just like "deceleration".... same thing, it's a vector quantity. Technically, it is positive and negative acceleration.

Wanna sound like a real geek, next time you see a cop taking radar, tell your passenger: " I saw the cop and started negative accelerating." But saying "decelerating" or "downforce" will only get you in trouble on a test in engineering school... I know that from direct experience.

 

[526 HRSE]

I can’t find the previous post in a different thread but someone posted where Ford Performance, or a similar performance group, was testing 350R’s with CF wheels vs 350R’s on lightweight metal wheels. The poster noted that the CF group stayed grouped and were tracking faster than the non-CF wheeled R’s. He also noted that the non-CF group was all over the place and their times were inconsistent.

The R package vs 350 is night and day on track.

"Night and Day on the track" So like 2 seconds? lol

 

[Tomster]

All I was saying was that the GT350R has a wing. I didn't want to get into aerodynamics.

 

[pilotgore]

And I got a chuckle out of your description of lift and how it is produced. My degree included many courses in applied advanced aerodynamics. What is your degree in and where did you get it? Are you a professional pilot? I'm asking so that I can relate to your experience. I see your user name is pilotgore.

I was a military pilot for 12 years. I flew upside down. I know what that means. I have been flying professionally for over 30 years.

Lets not muddy the waters here, A wing produces lift (in any direction) and a spoiler defeats lift.

Lift is not produced solely by deflecting air. Lift is produced because air moves faster over one surface vs the opposite side. So, yes, camber does influence how lift is generated. bernoulli's principle describes lift as the faster the speed of a fluid (air) moves over a surface, the less sideways force is exerted on that surface. Camber is one of the ways you get air to go faster over a surface compared to the opposite side of the wing. Camber, angle of attack, air density, and wing surface area are all factors in lift and the lift equation. You should know all this.

The GT350R has an upper and lower wing surface. Air flows faster over one of the wing as opposed to the other. Due to the camber, and the airflow, the wing produces lift in the downward direction. The angle of incidence is fixed, unlike the GT500CFTP (or the GT4) wing which has multiple settings for varying conditions. I can change the angle of incidence, which also changes the amount of (downward) lift by removing 2 screws and adjusting the angle.

So yes, the GT350R has a wing.

Triggered much?

 

[Tomster]

Triggered much?

You?

 

[pilotgore]

You?

Only when my Fedex package arrives late

 

[DrumReaper]

"Night and Day on the track" So like 2 seconds? lol

Driving dynamics... you can actually feel the difference n unsparing weight and corner speed if you drove them back-to back.

 

[honeybadger]

I'd argue this a bit - here's why...

(Assuming 2019 350+ vs any year 350R...)

• If I buy the R, I'd be replacing the springs for the FP springs (the FP350S springs I believe) either way - So that cost is moot as I'd do it on both cars.
• The 19 has likely enough aero if it has the handling pack - which also makes the camber plates the R comes with moot - no cost there unless I want to add the front lip
  • Let's say I do - I'm unsure on the front lip cost, but I can't imagine it's more than $500
• Mageride programming is moot because of the DSC Sport controller - which I can't say FOR SURE I'd need to do it on the 350R, but it's $1200 and likely worth it - especially considering the spring swap, I'd assume a new magneride calibration would help with this.
• Rear seat delete which is about $500
  
  So we're talking maximum $2200 difference there + labor (if I decide I don't want to do it myself, which I definitely can - it's a matter of time and desire really). Likely it's more of a $1000 difference (lip and rear seat delete) assuming I'd buy the springs+DSC either way.
  I do admit I lose roughly 75-100lbs (don't recall exact figures) of rear downforce here though.

The differences are then...

• Brake calibration is the same on all 19, so if I bought a used R, I'd miss out on that if I bought an older-than-2019 R as I'm unaware of a way to update the programming for this (let alone if the hardware would even support it)
• If I bought a 19+ non-R I lose out on CF wheels... However, I could definitely buy lightweight forged wheels and likely would for track use.
• If I didn't buy specifically a 2020 R, I lose the knuckles. I'd assume I could buy the parts but have no idea the cost on this
• If I don't buy a 19+ of either model, no new engine - which isn't necessarily a deal breaker, but definitely worth the consideration.

Anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong

The FP350S has coil overs, so not the same springs. I assume you’re talking about the lowering springs, which are similar to the R springs, but not the same. They’re a bit stiffer than the non-R springs, but still a bit inferior. On the positive side, the lower springs + associated sway bars were designed for the non-R magneride system, so they’re a perfect upgrade (preferred over swapping in R springs without the R calibration, IMHO.

Also, the R has physically different valving in the struts + different springs and tuning in the magneride sensor. You can’t replicate this with the DSC - you’re forging your own path here. One last bit, the R has special ABS tuning that maximizes grip on the Cup 2s. Also can’t replicate that on your own without some serious work.

All this said, you can take the money you save from not buying an R and make a car a good 2-3 seconds a lap faster than a 2020 R easily if lap time is your goal - add a tune, a wing, a front splitter, new brake pads, and a set of Hoosiers and you‘lol stomp an R. I know this because i’ve done it. That said, it’s hard to beat the R’s performance in a street friendly package, attention to detail, and resale value.

Its not a matter of being right or wrong. Its all numbers. You can not duplicate an R for less then the purchase price of an R. You could build a faster car but, again, not for the price of an R. The R is a factory race car. Its a fantastic car right out of the showroom. All I need for mine is a set of rear gears to get out of the corners a little quicker and a track alignment. The base car is fantastic as well so, you cant go wrong.

The R is NOT a factory race car. The FP350S mostly is, but not the R. It’s a track-focused model, but it’s not a race car. Too easy to overheat, it’s not setup to run slicks, weighs too much, and has no safety equipment. Compared to a true race car, it’s FAR from one.

I do agree with you about it being a fantastic car right off the showroom floor. Fantastic HPDE

To each his own... and that’s a good account as your post summed up reasoning well.

I had the opportunity to pick in 2015 between a non-R be an R and went R and I can tell you after driving both on track the difference is night and day.

Since, I’ll be tracking mine some, I’ll be choosing an R again, since a back seat is not an issue for me and I like the CF bits.

Night and day is so subjective. To me, night and day is Miata vs. Mustang. But I don’t think you’re implying that the difference between the R and the non-R is similar to comparing a Miata and Mustang for performance.

I’ve driven both on track, instructed in plenty, etc. I have 1000s of laps at COTA in both - the difference is apparent in stock form. But put Cup2s on a non-R and I bet I could fool most if they couldn’t visibly see what car they’re driving. The laptimes for sure would fool them.

Personally, I’d argue that the value of the R is more about feel than lap time. The fancy CF wheels and updated suspension/brake tuning is objectively better no doubt, but the margin is so small that it won’t really make a difference in lap time. As a related point, when I put all solid bushings in the rear end of my car, it felt substantially better. But it doesn’t directly improve lap time much. It just feels better and more confidence inspiring. Outside of tires, I’d argue the same is mostly true for the R.

I’d still argue that 1 set of R compounds on a non-R eliminates 95% of the R’s performance margin over the non-R for the majority of drivers. My own experience supports this.

I started down that road when I had my 2017 non R (lightweight wheels, Cup2 s, FP springs etc). While car got better and closer to what I wanted you would not confuse it with a same year R if you drove them back to back (it did not really need to be back to back to notice the difference). For me the answer to this was pretty obvious and do not regret it for one second.

I feel this, but do think an important note here is that you appear to have been measuring your car against an R, so it’s inevitable that you were going to run out of steam and be unsatisfied. Shoot past the R for your goals, and I think assessment would change.

But agree, if your goal is the R - then just get the R to begin with.

 

[pilotgore]

The FP350S has coil overs, so not the same springs. I assume you’re talking about the lowering springs, which are similar to the R springs, but not the same. They’re a bit stiffer than the non-R springs, but still a bit inferior. On the positive side, the lower springs + associated sway bars were designed for the non-R magneride system, so they’re a perfect upgrade (preferred over swapping in R springs without the R calibration, IMHO.

Also, the R has physically different valving in the struts + different springs and tuning in the magneride sensor. You can’t replicate this with the DSC - you’re forging your own path here. One last bit, the R has special ABS tuning that maximizes grip on the Cup 2s. Also can’t replicate that on your own without some serious work.

All this said, you can take the money you save from not buying an R and make a car a good 2-3 seconds a lap faster than a 2020 R easily if lap time is your goal - add a tune, a wing, a front splitter, new brake pads, and a set of Hoosiers and you‘lol stomp an R. I know this because i’ve done it. That said, it’s hard to beat the R’s performance in a street friendly package, attention to detail, and resale value.




The R is NOT a factory race car. The FP350S mostly is, but not the R. It’s a track-focused model, but it’s not a race car. Too easy to overheat, it’s not setup to run slicks, weighs too much, and has no safety equipment. Compared to a true race car, it’s FAR from one.

I do agree with you about it being a fantastic car right off the showroom floor. Fantastic HPDE



Night and day is so subjective. To me, night and day is Miata vs. Mustang. But I don’t think you’re implying that the difference between the R and the non-R is similar to comparing a Miata and Mustang for performance.

I’ve driven both on track, instructed in plenty, etc. I have 1000s of laps at COTA in both - the difference is apparent in stock form. But put Cup2s on a non-R and I bet I could fool most if they couldn’t visibly see what car they’re driving. The laptimes for sure would fool them.

Personally, I’d argue that the value of the R is more about feel than lap time. The fancy CF wheels and updated suspension/brake tuning is objectively better no doubt, but the margin is so small that it won’t really make a difference in lap time. As a related point, when I put all solid bushings in the rear end of my car, it felt substantially better. But it doesn’t directly improve lap time much. It just feels better and more confidence inspiring. Outside of tires, I’d argue the same is mostly true for the R.

I’d still argue that 1 set of R compounds on a non-R eliminates 95% of the R’s performance margin over the non-R for the majority of drivers. My own experience supports this.



I feel this, but do think an important note here is that you appear to have been measuring your car against an R, so it’s inevitable that you were going to run out of steam and be unsatisfied. Shoot past the R for your goals, and I think assessment would change.

But agree, if your goal is the R - then just get the R to begin with.

Don’t listen to this guy, he CLEARLY has no idea what he’s taking about!!

 

[526 HRSE]

Driving dynamics... you can actually feel the difference n unsparing weight and corner speed if you drove them back-to back.

If you have to drive them back to back to notice the difference, it's not worth the money.

 

[DrumReaper]

While I hear what you’re saying, lift is a Bernoulli effect, usually applied to the aerofoils of aircraft.

I’m not going to dive deeply into Mr. Bernoulli’s principle, I will simply state that “lift” is usually associated with a positive effect in flying. Without it, flight doesn’t occur.

Downforce, results from the application of a reversed wing in racing applications. Racing wings flow air under the foil faster, thus creating “downforce”, or for some people who like to utilize the Bernoulli effect in automotive applications, “negative lift”.

Here is a good racing explanation of downforce. http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/downforce.html

For simplistic reasons, using the word “lift” in racing is not generally accepted when referring to negative lift, as no one worth their salt in racing cares to hear the term “lift”, especially when approaching a turn. Pilots, love the term lift, and I don’t think in any of my years as a Flight Surgeon, or during my pilot training, have I ever heard a trainer or pilot inform me that, “We have too much downforce.”

 

[DrumReaper]

If you have to drive them back to back to notice the difference, it's not worth the money.

Technically, you don’t use money to purchase these cars... unless you have a huge stash of it.

Are we talking about your currency, or mine?.. maybe for your currency the difference isn’t justified. On the other hand, for mine, and many other R owners, our currency has been well spent.

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